Watch: A Professor’s Amazing Idea On Dealing With Open Carry Activists
A philosophy professor offers an amazing response to open carry activists who enter family-friendly establishments with guns strapped to their backs. He notes,”As many have pointed out, there is no way for bystanders to know whether the people with guns are “good guys” or “bad guys.” It is rational to be afraid of someone with a weapon, especially if you know nothing about them.”
That’s been my argument for awhile when gun activists claim there’s nothing to fear from an “inanimate object” but we don’t know the person whose hand is on the trigger. We do see their blatant disrespect for others though.
Jack Russell Weinstein, professor of philosophy and director of the Institute for Philosophy in Public Life at the University of North Dakota, came up with a solution as to how we should respond when witnessing these gun toting groups entering a store.
Weinstein writes:
My proposal is as follows: we should all leave. Immediately. Leave the food on the table in the restaurant. Leave the groceries in the cart, in the aisle. Stop talking or engaging in the exchange. Just leave, unceremoniously, and fast.
But here is the key part: don’t pay. Stopping to pay in the presence of a person with a gun means risking your and your loved ones’ lives; money shouldn’t trump this. It doesn’t matter if you ate the meal. It doesn’t matter if you’ve just received food from the deli counter that can’t be resold. It doesn’t matter if you just got a haircut. Leave. If the business loses money, so be it. They can make the activists pay.
Following this procedure has several advantages. First, it protects people. Second, it forces the businesses to really choose where their loyalties are. If the second amendment is as important as people claim, then people should be willing to pay for it. God knows, free speech is tremendously expensive.
Watch:
A YouTube commenter writes, “The best way to react is to thank them for supporting your rights and the Constitution. Advocating theft at restaurants is not a moral argument.”
We can thank our founding fathers, not gun carrying gangs, thank you very much. As for the allegation of “theft,” the professor covered that topic in the video.
There’s nothing to thank these two young men for after their group entered a Chipotle restaurant in Texas.
While activists have certain “rights” — which they have abused — nowhere on our favorite restaurant’s menu does it read, “Cheeseburger with a side of gangsta, yo.”
H/T: Shamelessly stolen from Wonkette.
Image: Crooks and Liars.
Click here for reuse options!Copyright 2014 Liberaland
By: Anomaly100
John David Peer July 26th, 2014 at 14:22
Except it’s doubtful most people are “fearing for their life” when they ecounter an open carry support group. Basically you are encouraging people to leave the vendor stuck with the bill as a means of drumming up anger against the gun groups.
This may or may not be a fair tactic to use, but it has its roots in your own personal ideology…there is nothing philosophical about it…you haven’t made peace between the sides with all this mock fear – you are only serving to widen the gulf.
That’s a shame.
R.J. Carter July 26th, 2014 at 14:27
Dude. I’m a conservative. Ask anyone here, I’m the whipping boy for all things I fight for and against.
I believe in gun carry. Hell, I even believe in open carry. If someone’s got a pistol holstered on their hip, it doesn’t bother me. If the local gas station has a couple of deer hunters walk in from the trail to get some beer and peanuts, I’m fine.
But if a group of men walk into my Target or my Chipotle or my Burger King with non-hunting rifles, my first instinct is going to be to get the F out of there with my family before whatever domestic terrorist militia statement they want to make includes me.
edmeyer_able July 26th, 2014 at 14:27
Tell us John, how do you distinguish between a person exercising their 2A right and a person about to commit mayhem?
Mo Reno July 26th, 2014 at 14:33
Well according to John, it’s “doubtful” that people will accurately distinguish between them, so I guess there’s no problem. According to this one guy. Looks like we can all wrap it up quite neatly by sowing doubt.
/s
Kick Frenzy July 26th, 2014 at 14:35
Easy.
If you’re bleeding after they leave, they were probably a bad guy.
lraivala July 26th, 2014 at 14:37
And how do you distinguish between someone who is walking into the place to blow-it up or not? Or how do you tell if that person is going to buy a Lexus or a Yugo? I guess no matter how hard you try you can never read or figure out ones mind set, now can you.
edmeyer_able July 26th, 2014 at 14:41
In your scenarios I don’t have to make that judgement, but when the subject is carrying a long gun making that decision can be the difference between life and death.
M D Reese July 26th, 2014 at 15:30
Same reason the Supreme Court has a humongous buffer zone–but of course struck down the modest buffer zone for women’s clinics.
edmeyer_able July 26th, 2014 at 15:55
Not really, you see both the SC and the nra are intelligent enough that inviting armed civilians into their space is only asking for trouble. The nra which is supposed to be defending your right to carry denies you that right when it suits them just fine.
M D Reese July 26th, 2014 at 15:56
That is pretty much what I said.
R.J. Carter July 26th, 2014 at 14:38
Obviously you must assume them to be bad… and shoot them.
Carla Akins July 26th, 2014 at 14:43
You know someone will read that, and not quite get you. :-)
R.J. Carter July 26th, 2014 at 14:43
It’s the ones who DO get me that you need to worry about. :)
Herb Sarge Phelps July 26th, 2014 at 14:55
Carla I was posting and got a message it was being removed even though it was factual and not insulting. I don’t know it was because it was a reply to another and that comment had been removed, or if in some really remote way you got the feeling it was offensive, which really would have been a massive stretch. Would you please explain. Thanks
Linda1961 July 26th, 2014 at 14:57
I got the same message, but when I refreshed, realized that it wasn’t my reply, but the comment I was replying to, as it had been deleted.
Herb Sarge Phelps July 26th, 2014 at 15:00
ok that was probably the case. I certainly don’t think it was my post but on sensitive subjects like this it is a challenge for mods since our society has becomes so crazy on this topic.
Carla Akins July 26th, 2014 at 15:04
You’re right, your post was fine.
mea_mark July 26th, 2014 at 15:00
The comment you were responding to was probably being deleted. Sorry about that.
Herb Sarge Phelps July 26th, 2014 at 15:02
thanks I know it hard to mod this subject since many throw reason in the trash and it makes it no longer a subject for discussion. Sad we have so many of them.
mea_mark July 26th, 2014 at 15:05
The comments that are left will not be deleted. You can respond to one of them if you want without fear of it being deleted. Your comment being removed was an automatic response from disqus when dealing with comments being deleted.
M D Reese July 26th, 2014 at 15:24
I’ve had that happen–sometimes the post you’re responding to will be taken down before your reply is posted. I hate it when that happens and I’ve got a whole head of steam worked up…
ChrisVosburg July 26th, 2014 at 16:00
I know [laughing]: Nooooo! My comment! My beautiful comment! It was PITHY! Bawwwwwwwww!
M D Reese July 27th, 2014 at 13:54
Me too–it’s sooooo humbling!
M D Reese July 26th, 2014 at 15:22
I get it, and I’m truly torn about it. If there were any justice, they would just shoot each other and leave the rest of us out of it.
M D Reese July 26th, 2014 at 15:20
Makes perfect sense. After a few hundred of them get summarily shot to death, maybe they’ll just quit it.
mea_mark July 26th, 2014 at 15:27
You would think, but most them just aren’t that smart.
M D Reese July 27th, 2014 at 13:59
Stubborn and stupid–a winning combination…
Herb Sarge Phelps July 26th, 2014 at 14:38
Truth is that you don’t know what the person with the gun has in mind, or their mental state. It is not sensible to consider them as law abiding citizens because armed robbers will come in with weapons and we know they aren’t well meaning citizens. Your thoughts are extremely slanted and frankly not well thought out. As for the vendor, they don’t know the intentions of the armed person and could be as a friend of mine, who was killed by armed robbers in Mississippi a few decades ago, find themselves facing the last minutes of their life.
Chinese Democracy July 26th, 2014 at 14:48
People have walked into theaters and massacred almost the entire theatre. They have walked into schools and murdered the entire class of kids. They have walked into malls and opened fire randomly . There is a mass murder in this country monthly it seems. So to say that its doubtful that parents with kids would be a fearful if a couple of podunks walked in with assault rifles is just ignorant of reality.
M D Reese July 26th, 2014 at 15:17
Actually, the open carry tactic is to continue to make us all numb and think that the chance that we may shot to death while grocery shopping is just the price we have to pay to accommodate a small group of ammosexual bullies. They are not good guys with guns–they are terrorists. Whenever someone disagrees with them, the first thing they do is to threaten them. I would leave an establishment if a group of them walked in and the manager did not ask them to take their guns elsewhere. My choice.
John David Peer July 26th, 2014 at 14:22
Except it’s doubtful most people are “fearing for their life” when they ecounter an open carry support group. Basically you are encouraging people to leave the vendor stuck with the bill as a means of drumming up anger against the gun groups.
This may or may not be a fair tactic to use, but it has its roots in your own personal ideology…there is nothing philosophical about it…you haven’t made peace between the sides with all this mock fear – you are only serving to widen the gulf.
That’s a shame.
R.J. Carter July 26th, 2014 at 14:27
Dude. I’m a conservative. Ask anyone here, I’m the whipping boy for all things I fight for and against.
I believe in gun carry. Hell, I even believe in open carry. If someone’s got a pistol holstered on their hip, it doesn’t bother me. If the local gas station has a couple of deer hunters walk in from the trail to get some beer and peanuts, I’m fine.
But if a group of men walk into my Target or my Chipotle or my Burger King with non-hunting rifles, my first instinct is going to be to get the F out of there with my family before whatever domestic terrorist militia statement they want to make includes me.
edmeyer_able July 26th, 2014 at 14:27
Tell us John, how do you distinguish between a person exercising their 2A right and a person about to commit mayhem?
Mo Reno July 26th, 2014 at 14:33
Well according to John, it’s “doubtful” that people will accurately distinguish between them, so I guess there’s no problem. According to this one guy. Looks like we can all wrap it up quite neatly by sowing doubt.
/s
Kick Frenzy July 26th, 2014 at 14:35
Easy.
If you’re bleeding after they leave, they were probably a bad guy.
lraivala July 26th, 2014 at 14:37
And how do you distinguish between someone who is walking into the place to blow-it up or not? Or how do you tell if that person is going to buy a Lexus or a Yugo? I guess no matter how hard you try you can never read or figure out ones mind set, now can you.
edmeyer_able July 26th, 2014 at 14:41
In your scenarios I don’t have to make that judgement, but when the subject is carrying a long gun making that decision can be the difference between life and death. btw Care to tell us why NRA hq bans guns?
M D Reese July 26th, 2014 at 15:30
Same reason the Supreme Court has a humongous buffer zone–but of course struck down the modest buffer zone for women’s clinics.
edmeyer_able July 26th, 2014 at 15:55
Not really, you see both the SC and the nra are intelligent enough that inviting armed civilians into their space is only asking for trouble. The nra which is supposed to be defending your right to carry denies you that right when it suits them just fine.
M D Reese July 26th, 2014 at 15:56
That is pretty much what I said.
R.J. Carter July 26th, 2014 at 14:38
Obviously you must assume them to be bad… and shoot them.
Carla Akins July 26th, 2014 at 14:43
You know someone will read that, and not quite get you. :-)
R.J. Carter July 26th, 2014 at 14:43
It’s the ones who DO get me that you need to worry about. :)
Herb Sarge Phelps July 26th, 2014 at 14:55
Carla I was posting and got a message it was being removed even though it was factual and not insulting. I don’t know it was because it was a reply to another and that comment had been removed, or if in some really remote way you got the feeling it was offensive, which really would have been a massive stretch. Would you please explain. Thanks
Linda1961 July 26th, 2014 at 14:57
I got the same message, but when I refreshed, realized that it wasn’t my reply, but the comment I was replying to, as it had been deleted.
Herb Sarge Phelps July 26th, 2014 at 15:00
ok that was probably the case. I certainly don’t think it was my post but on sensitive subjects like this it is a challenge for mods since our society has becomes so crazy on this topic.
Carla Akins July 26th, 2014 at 15:04
You’re right, your post was fine.
mea_mark July 26th, 2014 at 15:00
The comment you were responding to was probably being deleted. Sorry about that.
Herb Sarge Phelps July 26th, 2014 at 15:02
thanks I know it hard to mod this subject since many throw reason in the trash and it makes it no longer a subject for discussion. Sad we have so many of them.
mea_mark July 26th, 2014 at 15:05
The comments that are left will not be deleted. You can respond to one of them if you want without fear of it being deleted. Your comment being removed was an automatic response from disqus when dealing with comments being deleted.
M D Reese July 26th, 2014 at 15:24
I’ve had that happen–sometimes the post you’re responding to will be taken down before your reply is posted. I hate it when that happens and I’ve got a whole head of steam worked up…
ChrisVosburg July 26th, 2014 at 16:00
I know [laughing]: Nooooo! My comment! My beautiful comment! It was PITHY! Bawwwwwwwww!
M D Reese July 27th, 2014 at 13:54
Me too–it’s sooooo humbling!
M D Reese July 26th, 2014 at 15:22
I get it, and I’m truly torn about it. If there were any justice, they would just shoot each other and leave the rest of us out of it.
M D Reese July 26th, 2014 at 15:20
Makes perfect sense. After a few hundred of them get summarily shot to death, maybe they’ll just quit it.
mea_mark July 26th, 2014 at 15:27
You would think, but most them just aren’t that smart.
M D Reese July 27th, 2014 at 13:59
Stubborn and stupid–a winning combination…
Herb Sarge Phelps July 26th, 2014 at 14:38
Truth is that you don’t know what the person with the gun has in mind, or their mental state. It is not sensible to consider them as law abiding citizens because armed robbers will come in with weapons and we know they aren’t well meaning citizens. Your thoughts are extremely slanted and frankly not well thought out. As for the vendor, they don’t know the intentions of the armed person and could be as a friend of mine, who was killed by armed robbers in Mississippi a few decades ago, find themselves facing the last minutes of their life.
Chinese Democracy July 26th, 2014 at 14:48
People have walked into theaters and massacred almost the entire theatre. They have walked into schools and murdered the entire class of kids. They have walked into malls and opened fire randomly . There is a mass murder in this country monthly it seems. So to say that its doubtful that parents with kids would be a fearful if a couple of podunks walked in with assault rifles is just ignorant of reality.
M D Reese July 26th, 2014 at 15:17
Actually, the open carry tactic is to continue to make us all numb and think that the chance that we may shot to death while grocery shopping is just the price we have to pay to accommodate a small group of ammosexual bullies. They are not good guys with guns–they are terrorists. Whenever someone disagrees with them, the first thing they do is to threaten them. I would leave an establishment if a group of them walked in and the manager did not ask them to take their guns elsewhere. My choice.
Chinese Democracy July 26th, 2014 at 14:45
I think its a great idea.. If I saw those 2 pictured above walk in I would be sketchy about them WITHOUT the gun .
R.J. Carter July 26th, 2014 at 15:52
Who? Shorty and Jabba the Boonie Hat?
Chinese Democracy July 26th, 2014 at 14:45
I think its a great idea.. If I saw those 2 pictured above walk in I would be sketchy about them WITHOUT the gun .
R.J. Carter July 26th, 2014 at 15:52
Who? Shorty and Jabba the Boonie Hat?
Red Eye Robot July 26th, 2014 at 15:12
Yes, God Yes, you should do that immediately!
Red Eye Robot July 26th, 2014 at 15:12
Yes, God Yes, you should do that immediately!
TheNeedle July 26th, 2014 at 15:16
Clearly this professor has never been a server. In many restaurants, if someone walks the check, the server has the cost of the meal taken out of their pay. This is a terrible idea.
Carla Akins July 26th, 2014 at 15:19
Some, but not all. However I think you’re missing the bigger picture.
TheNeedle July 26th, 2014 at 15:22
So when you’re leaving, will you have time to check and make sure your dine and dash won’t be taken out on your server, who’s done nothing wrong?
Herb Sarge Phelps July 26th, 2014 at 15:23
remember the young man who went to the store to buy a sandwich and a guy starting shooting outside with a bullet ending his life. How much did the store get paid for that sandwich?
Carla Akins July 26th, 2014 at 15:36
I think you may be missing the point. However, if all patrons walk out, what kind of a douchebag manager would make all the servers pay for all the meals. No one is trying to short change a server, I’ve worked as one off and on for 40 years. Much like an act of civil disobedience, the act is designed to instigate change in the process. How would you feel as a server, if the members of your party were carrying loaded weapons? Would you feel safe? What if they were drinking? I am sorry if a server gets stiffed on a meal – but shutting down this type of aggressive bullying behavior is simply more important.
TheNeedle July 26th, 2014 at 15:39
“what kind of a douchebag manager would make all the servers pay for all the meals. ”
A lot of them. Congratulations on always having fair managers. It ain’t necessarily so for everyone.
Robert M. Snyder July 26th, 2014 at 20:08
If you are advocating that customers should walk out immediately, then why not advocate that employees also walk out? My wife is a night shift charge nurse. If anybody shows up on her floor carrying one of those honking big rifles, I think she would immediately be concerned about the welfare of her patients, staff, and self. A call to 911 would probably be made ASAP. So why is a restaurant any different than a hospital?
I strongly support the second amendment, but this open carry stuff is just nuts. Rights come with responsibilities. These people are not behaving responsibly and I wish that the NRA would strongly condemn this sort of behavior.
Carla Akins July 26th, 2014 at 20:12
You’ll get no argument from me, I believe he specifically addressed these types of retail establishments because that’s where the OC groups are so fond of visiting and asserting their “rights.”
Robert M. Snyder July 26th, 2014 at 20:44
Suppose that your state allowed open carry, and you were employed as a server at a restaurant. Suppose that you informed your manager that if someone walks in with a rifle, you would consider it a serious threat to your personal safety and you would leave immediately. Suppose that your manager replied “If you do that, don’t bother coming back because you won’t have a job.”.
Now suppose that someone actually walks in with a rifle, and you actually leave, and you lose your job. I think you would have a pretty strong case if you challenged the dismissal in court. For example, I suspect that OSHA regulations might have something to say about explosive devices and projectiles. Soldiers and police officers are issued body armor. Some banks have bulletproof glass teller windows. Employers have a duty to think about worker safety.
mea_mark July 26th, 2014 at 15:23
They ought to just bans guns then. No guns, no problems. Besides they may not charge the server if the customers were scared away by armed people walking in. If I was management, I would be afraid of losing my employees and possibly being sued by them for unjustifiable costs taken out of their checks.
TheNeedle July 26th, 2014 at 15:25
“They ought to just bans guns then.”
I agree.
“If I was management, I would be afraid of losing my employees and possibly being sued by them for unjustifiable costs taken out of their checks.”
HAHAHAAAA! That’s a funny one.
mea_mark July 26th, 2014 at 15:34
In Texas at least you have to be very careful. I know someone who that happened to and that person was about dumb as can be and still function. They took it to court and won and he didn’t have a clue what he was doing. You take any thing out of check you better have darn good legal reason to do it.
urbanegorilla July 26th, 2014 at 16:28
That was my thought originally, until i realized that a business is responsible for store policy. If a store policy results in cash loss to the employees in the fashion you stated, then the employees should go to the labor commissioner..if needed. I would hope the business understood that the employee doesn’t make the rules, and an employee cannot be charged for losses due to the company’s policy. It’s one thing for a waiter to not catch someone ‘dining and dashing’ and another to be charged because the customer leave in fear or disgust. Would the business charge the waiter if during a holdup people fled without paying? Nope. And if they did, the labor commissioner is where they should appeal. After the business refunded those shortages and paid a few thousand in fines, they’d either block open-crazies, or not charge the waiter. (Been there, done that.)
R.J. Carter July 26th, 2014 at 15:51
I’d be more satisfied if they just allowed concealed carry, which is more middle of the road. As any open carry activist will tell you, a sign banning guns never deters a criminal from doing just that.
mea_mark July 26th, 2014 at 16:54
Don’t ask, Don’t tell.
drklassen July 27th, 2014 at 19:38
Conceal carry is what needs to be banned.
R.J. Carter July 28th, 2014 at 11:08
I completely disagree, but that’s another topic.
Herb Sarge Phelps July 26th, 2014 at 15:31
Here is a problem you aren’t considering. Someone comes in eats a meal and an armed person comes in, opens fire on the people, do you think the servers are thinking about tips or survival? Obviously survival. However if guns are forbidden and the threat is removed, the server will get any tips left as long as nobody else steals them.
TheNeedle July 26th, 2014 at 15:37
If they walk in and start shooting, of course the situation is different. But what the professor is suggesting is to show your distaste for the open carry loonies by walking the check. His words: “If the business loses money, so be it. They can make the activists pay.”
But chances are very good that the business won’t lose money, because they’ll fall back on “policy” and make the workers pay.
I hate these lunatics with a passion as well, but I’m not willing to let the worker take it in the shorts to make my point.
I’m very grateful, BTW, for the businesses that have come out clearly with “don’t bring your guns in here” policies.
Carla Akins July 26th, 2014 at 15:39
His words: “If the business loses money, so be it. They can make the activists pay.” He means pay by losing overall business, the establishment cannot make money if no one will come in anymore – thereby forcing the establishment to prohibit guns.
Herb Sarge Phelps July 26th, 2014 at 15:41
I have managed a Krystal’s in Hattiesburg Ms. and thankfully this issue didn’t exist back then. I never had a gun brought in my store. Had they I would have asked them to leave because even when police came in with their guns, they knew it bothered people so they sat as much out of view as possible so as not to make people nervous. Doesn’t that tell you something that even these police officers realized it bothered people?
Herb Sarge Phelps July 26th, 2014 at 15:58
You are looking at this a little unclear. I assure you even the workers would rather these people stay out, because who knows what their temperament or motives are. It is unsettling to deal with an armed customer and even if that customer is a police officer, you are aware of the gun and worried that for whatever reason, that officer might be forced to use it. I asked Police Officers to come in my store, but I also reserved an out of the way table for them for my customers and workers peace of mine.
mea_mark July 26th, 2014 at 16:53
Yeah, in the back corner where they can sit with their back to the wall and see everything going on, heck that is where they want to sit anyways, if they are any good at their job.
edmeyer_able July 27th, 2014 at 15:04
Aces & eights…. R I P James Butler Hickok
Protoguy July 27th, 2014 at 00:06
The point is two-fold. One, yes, a counter-protest, but two and foremost in my mind – you leave because no one knows what another person is thinking or planning. Who’s to decide whether it’s a protest or a shooting? Leave when the shooting starts?! That’s the most ridiculous thing I’ve read in this thread.
Gort1 July 27th, 2014 at 00:53
Why wait for the inevitable. .I’m leaving
Jim Valley July 26th, 2014 at 16:53
If I’m in a restaurant and a guy comes in with a gun, buddy I am GONE. I would have done the same thing before I read this article.
Mo Reno July 26th, 2014 at 17:40
Sorry, but that’s totally illegal. The server is not liable for the fraud committed by a diner in any jurisdiction I’ve heard of.
burqa July 26th, 2014 at 23:48
I have heard of waitresses or waiters being held liable for a meal if the patron sneaks out without paying.
But if the patron tells the manager they don’t know if the gun carriers are there intending to use their weapons to rob the people there and says they are leaving out of fear of the possibility these people with guns are crooks, I don’t think the waiter or waitress would be held liable because the customer did not sneak out.
Gort1 July 27th, 2014 at 00:50
No clearly YOU have never been somewhere with your family had some nut jobs come in with weapons. Server be da__ed. It’s my family.
Niki King July 27th, 2014 at 08:39
If I was the server I’d be leaving too, and my boss would be getting an earful about a safe working environment.
emma July 27th, 2014 at 11:30
yup. I’d be out. Too much gun violence in my city to believe that someone carrying a gun isn’t there to do harm. Unless they have a badge and uniform. “He’s got a gun!” would be shouted, and I would be gone, on the clock or no.
TheNeedle July 26th, 2014 at 15:16
Clearly this professor has never been a server. In many restaurants, if someone walks the check, the server has the cost of the meal taken out of their pay. This is a terrible idea.
Carla Akins July 26th, 2014 at 15:19
Some, but not all. However I think you’re missing the bigger picture.
TheNeedle July 26th, 2014 at 15:22
So when you’re leaving, will you have time to check and make sure your dine and dash won’t be taken out on your server, who’s done nothing wrong?
Herb Sarge Phelps July 26th, 2014 at 15:23
remember the young man who went to the store to buy a sandwich and a guy starting shooting outside with a bullet ending his life. How much did the store get paid for that sandwich?
Carla Akins July 26th, 2014 at 15:36
I think you may be missing the point. However, if all patrons walk out, what kind of a douchebag manager would make all the servers pay for all the meals. No one is trying to short change a server, I’ve worked as one off and on for 40 years. Much like an act of civil disobedience, the act is designed to instigate change in the process. How would you feel as a server, if the members of your party were carrying loaded weapons? Would you feel safe? What if they were drinking? I am sorry if a server gets stiffed on a meal – but shutting down this type of aggressive bullying behavior is simply more important.
TheNeedle July 26th, 2014 at 15:39
“what kind of a douchebag manager would make all the servers pay for all the meals. ”
A lot of them. Congratulations on always having fair managers. It ain’t necessarily so for everyone.
Robert M. Snyder July 26th, 2014 at 20:08
If you are advocating that customers should walk out immediately, then why not advocate that employees also walk out? My wife is a night shift charge nurse. If anybody shows up on her floor carrying one of those honking big rifles, I think she would immediately be concerned about the welfare of her patients, staff, and self. A call to 911 would probably be made ASAP. So why is a restaurant any different than a hospital?
I strongly support the second amendment, but this open carry stuff is just nuts. Rights come with responsibilities. These people are not behaving responsibly and I wish that the NRA would strongly condemn this sort of behavior.
Carla Akins July 26th, 2014 at 20:12
You’ll get no argument from me, I believe he specifically addressed these types of retail establishments because that’s where the OC groups are so fond of visiting and asserting their “rights.”
Robert M. Snyder July 26th, 2014 at 20:44
Suppose that your state allowed open carry, and you were employed as a server at a restaurant. Suppose that you informed your manager that if someone walks in with a rifle, you would consider it a serious threat to your personal safety and you would leave immediately. Suppose that your manager replied “If you do that, don’t bother coming back because you won’t have a job.”.
Now suppose that someone actually walks in with a rifle, and you actually leave, and you lose your job. I think you would have a pretty strong case if you challenged the dismissal in court. For example, I suspect that OSHA regulations might have something to say about explosive devices and projectiles. Soldiers and police officers are issued body armor. Some banks have bulletproof glass teller windows. Employers have a duty to think about worker safety.
mea_mark July 26th, 2014 at 15:23
They ought to just bans guns then. No guns, no problems. Besides they may not charge the server if the customers were scared away by armed people walking in. If I was management, I would be afraid of losing my employees and possibly being sued by them for unjustifiable costs taken out of their checks.
TheNeedle July 26th, 2014 at 15:25
“They ought to just bans guns then.”
I agree.
“If I was management, I would be afraid of losing my employees and possibly being sued by them for unjustifiable costs taken out of their checks.”
HAHAHAAAA! That’s a funny one.
mea_mark July 26th, 2014 at 15:34
In Texas at least you have to be very careful. I know someone who that happened to and that person was about as dumb as you can be and still function. They took it to court and won and he didn’t have a clue what he was doing. You take any thing out of a paycheck you better have darn good legal reason to do it.
urbanegorilla July 26th, 2014 at 16:28
That was my thought originally, until i realized that a business is responsible for store policy. If a store policy results in cash loss to the employees in the fashion you stated, then the employees should go to the labor commissioner..if needed. I would hope the business understood that the employee doesn’t make the rules, and an employee cannot be charged for losses due to the company’s policy. It’s one thing for a waiter to not catch someone ‘dining and dashing’ and another to be charged because the customer leave in fear or disgust. Would the business charge the waiter if during a holdup people fled without paying? Nope. And if they did, the labor commissioner is where they should appeal. After the business refunded those shortages and paid a few thousand in fines, they’d either block open-crazies, or not charge the waiter. (Been there, done that.)
R.J. Carter July 26th, 2014 at 15:51
I’d be more satisfied if they just allowed concealed carry, which is more middle of the road. As any open carry activist will tell you, a sign banning guns never deters a criminal from doing just that.
mea_mark July 26th, 2014 at 16:54
Don’t ask, Don’t tell.
drklassen July 27th, 2014 at 19:38
Conceal carry is what needs to be banned.
R.J. Carter July 28th, 2014 at 11:08
I completely disagree, but that’s another topic.
Herb Sarge Phelps July 26th, 2014 at 15:31
Here is a problem you aren’t considering. Someone comes in eats a meal and an armed person comes in, opens fire on the people, do you think the servers are thinking about tips or survival? Obviously survival. However if guns are forbidden and the threat is removed, the server will get any tips left as long as nobody else steals them.
TheNeedle July 26th, 2014 at 15:37
If they walk in and start shooting, of course the situation is different. But what the professor is suggesting is to show your distaste for the open carry loonies by walking the check. His words: “If the business loses money, so be it. They can make the activists pay.”
But chances are very good that the business won’t lose money, because they’ll fall back on “policy” and make the workers pay.
I hate these lunatics with a passion as well, but I’m not willing to let the worker take it in the shorts to make my point.
I’m very grateful, BTW, for the businesses that have come out clearly with “don’t bring your guns in here” policies.
Carla Akins July 26th, 2014 at 15:39
His words: “If the business loses money, so be it. They can make the activists pay.” He means pay by losing overall business, the establishment cannot make money if no one will come in anymore – thereby forcing the establishment to prohibit guns.
Herb Sarge Phelps July 26th, 2014 at 15:41
I have managed a Krystal’s in Hattiesburg Ms. and thankfully this issue didn’t exist back then. I never had a gun brought in my store. Had they I would have asked them to leave because even when police came in with their guns, they knew it bothered people so they sat as much out of view as possible so as not to make people nervous. Doesn’t that tell you something that even these police officers realized it bothered people?
Herb Sarge Phelps July 26th, 2014 at 15:58
You are looking at this a little unclear. I assure you even the workers would rather these people stay out, because who knows what their temperament or motives are. It is unsettling to deal with an armed customer and even if that customer is a police officer, you are aware of the gun and worried that for whatever reason, that officer might be forced to use it. I asked Police Officers to come in my store, but I also reserved an out of the way table for them for my customers and workers peace of mine.
mea_mark July 26th, 2014 at 16:53
Yeah, in the back corner where they can sit with their back to the wall and see everything going on, heck that is where they want to sit anyways, if they are any good at their job.
edmeyer_able July 27th, 2014 at 15:04
Aces & eights…. R I P James Butler Hickok
Protoguy July 27th, 2014 at 00:06
The point is two-fold. One, yes, a counter-protest, but two and foremost in my mind – you leave because no one knows what another person is thinking or planning. Who’s to decide whether it’s a protest or a shooting? Leave when the shooting starts?! That’s the most ridiculous thing I’ve read in this thread.
Jim Valley July 26th, 2014 at 16:53
If I’m in a restaurant and a guy comes in with a gun, buddy I am GONE. I would have done the same thing before I read this article.
Mo Reno July 26th, 2014 at 17:40
Sorry, but that’s totally illegal. The server is not liable for the fraud committed by a diner in any jurisdiction I’ve heard of.
TheNeedle July 26th, 2014 at 20:52
And yet it happens. It happens a lot. I’ve seen it, I’ve had it happen to me, and I still hear of it from people still in the business. Legal? Management doesn’t care. So, thanks for the suggestion, but I’ll express my displeasure in a way that doesn’t screw over the workers.
Mo Reno July 26th, 2014 at 21:58
So, your affinity for worker’s rights and the law is only as deep as your vanity and unwillingness to report a crime…
Nice.
TheNeedle July 26th, 2014 at 22:51
What in God’s name are you babbling about? What crime? You think the sheriff’s going to burst in and bust the manager of Chili’s for shafting workers? How can you be this naive?
And your affinity for worker’s rights is apparently non existent. Some liberal.
Mo Reno July 27th, 2014 at 00:18
The crime is stealing worker’s wages for something they aren’t liable for: a dine and dash. You really can’t see the crime there? It wouldn’t be the sheriff, but one of the various labor agencies that could enforce that.
Do yourself a favor, don’t invoke god’s name while simultaneously arguing in support of wage theft. Pretty sure your god wouldn’t support that, or is their some arcane, spurious biblical passage that somehow favors employers that rip off their workers? I’m not up on all the newest Christian apologetics.
Herb Sarge Phelps July 27th, 2014 at 01:21
my God wouldn’t need me to carry a gun into a food place. Oh which reminds me, in the Air Force when we had post rotation for chow, we weren’t allow to carry our weapons inside, but left them with one running post rotation. Bet the USAF knows more about weapons than you do. Directed at the one who invoked God. Really?
Mo Reno July 27th, 2014 at 00:21
Why do your comments tend to have a solitary upvote?
Is it a slow day in sockpuppet land?
Mo Reno July 27th, 2014 at 00:26
My affinity for worker’s rights is apparently non-existent to you because I know that the law doesn’t hold them personally responsible for a walk-out?
You aren’t too quick on the uptake.
Try thinking it through before you post.
Herb Sarge Phelps July 27th, 2014 at 01:34
actually it isn’t legal. I had the Area Manager at Krystal’s try to keep my last paycheck, but I got a legal aid lawyer and he not only gave me my check but drove to my apartment with it, took me to the bank to cash it, and apologized instead of going to court.
emma July 27th, 2014 at 11:32
it does happen, Mo. At the very least, the server is responsible for the taxes on the meal – and with no tip, they in essence pay for the meal anyway, especially if they have to tip out to bartenders, bussers, and hosts.
Mo Reno July 27th, 2014 at 15:22
Balderdash, emma. Servers are not responsible for the taxes on meals they serve, they’re servers, not tax collectors.
Maybe I’m wrong. Can you show me the law that makes servers responsible for taxes on meals they don’t eat?
burqa July 26th, 2014 at 23:48
I have heard of waitresses or waiters being held liable for a meal if the patron sneaks out without paying.
But if the patron tells the manager they don’t know if the gun carriers are there intending to use their weapons to rob the people there and says they are leaving out of fear of the possibility these people with guns are crooks, I don’t think the waiter or waitress would be held liable because the customer did not sneak out.
Niki King July 27th, 2014 at 08:39
If I was the server I’d be leaving too, and my boss would be getting an earful about a safe working environment.
emma July 27th, 2014 at 11:30
yup. I’d be out. Too much gun violence in my city to believe that someone carrying a gun isn’t there to do harm. Unless they have a badge and uniform. “He’s got a gun!” would be shouted, and I would be gone, on the clock or no.
Herb Sarge Phelps July 26th, 2014 at 15:20
Actually I must say that some who have tried to comment here and because of their abusive comments requiring removal and preventing others from making reasonable and sensible replies just shows why the professor is right on. If an open carry advocate can’t post on a site like this without being vicious, then why should anyone believe they are reasonable enough to have a gun in a place of business? Those who have to be abusive and threatening in support of open carry are not reasonable and could misuse their weapons in anger.
Herb Sarge Phelps July 26th, 2014 at 15:20
Actually I must say that some who have tried to comment here and because of their abusive comments requiring removal and preventing others from making reasonable and sensible replies just shows why the professor is right on. If an open carry advocate can’t post on a site like this without being vicious, then why should anyone believe they are reasonable enough to have a gun in a place of business? Those who have to be abusive and threatening in support of open carry are not reasonable and could misuse their weapons in anger.
Kara Connor July 31st, 2014 at 17:22
The ammophile commenters are all about disciplined self-control, and don’t reflexively call me a gun-grabber or tell me to FO on multiple occasions instead of attempting to address my concerns. Well regulated militia is probably the best description that springs to my libtard mind.
Luhgnut July 26th, 2014 at 16:45
Why is it, that if you have a concealed carry permit, and someone sees the gun, you can be arrested for “Inciting Fear”, but if you walk around with an AR-15, you get free nachos?
Gort1 July 27th, 2014 at 00:48
Because you need to CONCEAL..the weapon. Now do you understand?
Luhgnut July 27th, 2014 at 01:27
why, thank you Mr. Obvious.
drklassen July 27th, 2014 at 19:35
Actually, I’d love to see the end of conceal carry. If some yahoo wants to pack, strap it to your hip so we can all see who’s got what.
Matthias Dankert July 28th, 2014 at 01:02
I’d like the see the end of liberals but I don’t think either of us is going to get our wish :(
drklassen July 28th, 2014 at 07:11
If there hadn’t been liberals, you’d still be a servant of the Crown.
Luhgnut July 26th, 2014 at 16:45
Why is it, that if you have a concealed carry permit, and someone sees the gun, you can be arrested for “Inciting Fear”, but if you walk around with an AR-15, you get free nachos?
Luhgnut July 27th, 2014 at 01:27
why, thank you Mr. Obvious.
drklassen July 27th, 2014 at 19:35
Actually, I’d love to see the end of conceal carry. If some yahoo wants to pack, strap it to your hip so we can all see who’s got what.
Matthias Dankert July 28th, 2014 at 01:02
I’d like the see the end of liberals but I don’t think either of us is going to get our wish :(
drklassen July 28th, 2014 at 07:11
If there hadn’t been liberals, you’d still be a servant of the Crown.
Jim Valley July 26th, 2014 at 16:51
That picture of a pair of pathetic misfits with their great big guns pretty much sums up the problem.
Zemo Carpathian July 27th, 2014 at 12:01
These guys remind me of the guys in high school we called “Losers”. Now, with their big guns, in their minds, they are winners (like George Zimmerman). I see these guys with their big guns or any ones like them in a restaurant, I am out of there.
Matthias Dankert July 28th, 2014 at 01:01
The guys like this aren’t the ones you have to worry about. Their pants aren’t sagging, they’re not wearing gang colors, they’re not throwing gang signs. You think your average criminal is going to wear his gun on a holster in plain sight? You really are delusional. Criminals tuck it into their waistbands and hold it sideways. As far as loser, that’s unlikely. Most likely their criminal record is cleaner than yours. Just saying, most law abiding legal gun owners walk the straight and narrow path of the law. Can you say the same? Unlikely.
Matthias Dankert July 28th, 2014 at 00:59
What exactly makes them pathetic misfits? The fact that they own guns? Hmmmm….
concreteblue July 28th, 2014 at 01:20
“The fact that they own guns?”
No. THe fact that they need to carry semi auto rifles on their backs to show off/intimidate people is what makes them pathetic misfits. Rational gun owners don’t feel the need to pack heat 24/7, and if they do, they carry concealed. These people are idiots.
Dan Kellam July 28th, 2014 at 19:20
actually yes. only cowards need a gun to feel safe. Bullies love guns too.
Jim Valley July 26th, 2014 at 16:51
That picture of a pair of pathetic misfits with their great big guns pretty much sums up the problem.
Zemo Carpathian July 27th, 2014 at 12:01
These guys remind me of the guys in high school we called “Losers”. Now, with their big guns, in their minds, they are winners (like George Zimmerman). I see these guys with their big guns or any ones like them in a restaurant, I am out of there.
Unfortunately, because of the world we live, I need security alarms for my house and a Mossburg Semi-automatic shotgun for protection and I live in a very nice neighborhood with very alert and friendly neighbors.
Matthias Dankert July 28th, 2014 at 01:01
The guys like this aren’t the ones you have to worry about. Their pants aren’t sagging, they’re not wearing gang colors, they’re not throwing gang signs. You think your average criminal is going to wear his gun on a holster in plain sight? You really are delusional. Criminals tuck it into their waistbands and hold it sideways. As far as loser, that’s unlikely. Most likely their criminal record is cleaner than yours. Just saying, most law abiding legal gun owners walk the straight and narrow path of the law. Can you say the same? Unlikely.
Matthias Dankert July 28th, 2014 at 00:59
What exactly makes them pathetic misfits? The fact that they own guns? Hmmmm….
concreteblue July 28th, 2014 at 01:20
“The fact that they own guns?”
No. THe fact that they need to carry semi auto rifles on their backs to show off/intimidate people is what makes them pathetic misfits. Rational gun owners don’t feel the need to pack heat 24/7, and if they do, they carry concealed. These people are idiots.
ANd what REALLY makes them idiots is the idea that the rifle will be handy in close quarters of a restaurant when somebody runs in blazing their SR45…IF they don’t get shot right off the bat…..
Dan Kellam July 28th, 2014 at 19:20
actually yes. only cowards need a gun to feel safe. Bullies love guns too.
Sko Hayes July 26th, 2014 at 17:33
If you’ve eaten the meal, pay first, then leave. Don’t stiff the restaurant workers.
TheNeedle July 26th, 2014 at 20:59
Got to love all these people who’ll walk out and let their server get screwed so they can feel all righteous.
Hirightnow July 26th, 2014 at 21:04
Just like you got to love all those people who present an apparent danger to the public so they can feel all “patriotic”, right?
KW July 26th, 2014 at 22:52
Boom goes the dynamite.
Protoguy July 27th, 2014 at 00:04
Once again, ignoring the point entirely. If I feel my safety or the safety of my family is at stake, I’m certainly not taking the time to wait for the staff to give me a bill and then pay (or a gunman to shoot me in the back) before I leave the place.
THAT and the concept of standing up for your rights seems very one-sided to you and the gun assholes. They’re standing up for their rights and to hell with mine? Yeah, no. My right to live trumps their rights to terrorize everyone with their tiny-penis compensation devices.
Gort1 July 27th, 2014 at 00:47
Try and get the big picture. ..read the article again. .slowly if you need to.
Gort1 July 27th, 2014 at 00:47
No. Don’t pay. Why spend any more time with armed idiots than necessary
Sko Hayes July 26th, 2014 at 17:33
If you’ve eaten the meal, pay first, then leave. Don’t stiff the restaurant workers.
TheNeedle July 26th, 2014 at 20:59
Got to love all these people who’ll walk out and let their server get screwed so they can feel all righteous.
Hirightnow July 26th, 2014 at 21:04
Just like you got to love all those people who present an apparent danger to the public so they can feel all “patriotic”, right?
Momentumspace July 26th, 2014 at 22:52
Boom goes the dynamite.
Protoguy July 27th, 2014 at 00:04
Once again, ignoring the point entirely. If I feel my safety or the safety of my family is at stake, I’m certainly not taking the time to wait for the staff to give me a bill and then pay (or a gunman to shoot me in the back) before I leave the place.
THAT and the concept of standing up for your rights seems very one-sided to you and the gun assholes. They’re standing up for their rights and to hell with mine? Yeah, no. My right to live trumps their rights to terrorize everyone with their tiny-penis compensation devices.
the_great_guckenheimer July 26th, 2014 at 17:45
Pay if you have products that cannot be put back on the shelves for sale, tell the management that you will not be back until the law or their rules change, then leave and stick to your words. That’s probably about the best you can do legally.
the_great_guckenheimer July 26th, 2014 at 17:45
Pay if you have products that cannot be put back on the shelves for sale, tell the management that you will not be back until the law or their rules change, then leave and stick to your words. That’s probably about the best you can do legally.
Rixar13 McGinnis July 26th, 2014 at 19:35
Don’t pay the bill, I like it…
burqa July 26th, 2014 at 23:41
Reminds me of the line by the guy with a Mohawk in “Repo Man”: “let’s go get sushi – and not pay!”
Rixar13 McGinnis July 26th, 2014 at 19:35
Don’t pay the bill, I like it…
burqa July 26th, 2014 at 23:41
Reminds me of the line by the guy with a Mohawk in “Repo Man”: “let’s go get sushi – and not pay!”