Why the right can’t admit it was an anti-LGBT attack
For conservatives to admit that the shootings at the Pulse nightclub was an anti-LGBT attack, they have to come to terms with the level of discrimination against the LGBT community, and stop presenting themselves as culture victims.
Click here for reuse options!Casting non-LGBT people as victims is now a necessary part of the conservative strategy. As recently as 20 years ago, blatant bigotry against LGBT people was still generally acceptable in society. When that started to change, conservatives began to instead argue that anybody could be a victim except LGBT people. Indeed, LGBT people had to be portrayed as the villains who will destroy society and undermine “religious liberty.”
Copyright 2016 Liberaland
102 responses to Why the right can’t admit it was an anti-LGBT attack
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halfwayin June 17th, 2016 at 10:57
Would they ever admit that these hateful bathroom laws and the anti Planned Parenthood rhetoric lead by Blackburn is the gasoline they are throwing on the fire?
Some of them might.
Jeanne173 June 17th, 2016 at 13:29
Yeah, when pigs fly.
labman57 June 17th, 2016 at 11:06
Some conservatives find it so unacceptable for Americans to show solidarity and empathy for the LGBT community that they feel compelled to deny the shooter’s motivation for the attack.
Suzanne McFly June 17th, 2016 at 11:19
And it is these Bible thumpers who believe it is weak for the democrats to show empathy and solidarity for this group. It is so absurd, you can’t make this stuff up.
Mensa Member June 17th, 2016 at 11:31
Why won’t conservatives say the words “violent homophobia”?
Because they are sympathizers?
whatthe46 June 17th, 2016 at 13:27
Good one!
Um Cara June 17th, 2016 at 12:38
As recently as 20 years ago, blatant bigotry against LGBT people was still generally acceptable in society.
Dude, ‘as recently as 20 years ago’? Our own (supposedly liberal) president ran on a pro-bigotry against LGBT people platform. Joe Biden had to get out on front of the issue to bring our (supposedly liberal) president on board in 2012. I don’t remember exactly when our (supposedly liberal) nominee, HRC, ‘evolved’ past her own bigotry.
http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2012/05/timeline-of-obamas-evolving-on-same-sex-marriage/
Let’s not pretend this was a ’20 years ago’ problem, it was a ‘4 years ago’ problem even among some (supposed) liberals.
OldLefty June 17th, 2016 at 12:48
And yet that president is the only one to do anything substantive for the LGBT community, regardless of what he said.
And even (supposed) liberals like Bernie Sanders also evolved.
Most people in the nation have evolved in what was the most rapid evolution TOWARDS rights that I have seen in my lifetime.
Um Cara June 17th, 2016 at 12:55
Sure, I give Obama credit for ‘evolving’ past his bigotry on the issue. If folks are never recognized for moving on, there would be less incentive to do so.
Yea Obama! Woot, woot! <- Seriously, no snark intended
My point is that this isn't a '20 years ago thing', even among folks many consider liberal.
anothertoothpick June 17th, 2016 at 14:00
Um Cara, I invite you to watch the documentary about Tab Hunter on Netflix, if you have Netflix.
You will learn what it was like to be gay in the 1950’s.
This country has come a long way to the good.
Remember this, the KKK was very popular on both sides of the aisle at one time.
We have to look forward or we will fall backward.
StoneyCurtisll June 17th, 2016 at 20:51
Tab Hunter…
Young Love..(1956)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mEg5oWW5F2c
bpollen June 18th, 2016 at 01:51
Must suck to be named after a soft drink. But Mr. Pibb or Dr. Pepper would be worse.
StoneyCurtisll June 18th, 2016 at 15:47
He did pretty well for himself, against the odds he faced at those times.
Being outed back in the 50’s-60’s-70’s was a career breaker.
bpollen June 19th, 2016 at 01:56
Let me string together a coupla quotes:
“You’ve come a long way baby” but “we’ve still got a long way to go.”
— Virginia Slims and Alice Cooper.
StoneyCurtisll June 19th, 2016 at 09:20
I remember those…
Seems like yesterday..:)
Bunya June 17th, 2016 at 13:35
The reason the right won’t admit it was an LGBT attack is because this is a win-win for them:
President Obama blamed for “terrorist attack”
Christian right thinks gays should be stoned to death (as instructed in their bible) anyway, so they have no argument with them.
Ron Theison June 17th, 2016 at 16:01
It was an LGBT attack, plus an attack on all Americans as a whole by a Muslim fanatic. This mans religion was the driving force. Just look at the penalties against gay people in the Muslim world – more Muslim nations hate and despise gay people than don’t.
Bunya June 17th, 2016 at 16:13
No question the Muslim religion teaches homosexuality is “a sin”. So does Christianity. And I’d bet you any money that if stoning homosexuals ever became law in the U.S., the Christians would be rushing to be the first in line. Don’t be fooled. This man was raised to be a bigot, and blaming their god for atrocities they, themselves, commit, is what religious fanatics do.
whatthe46 June 17th, 2016 at 21:53
was McVeigh attack just on govt. employees or on all people, whom, by the way, happened to be “christian?” would it be fair to call all white Americans who are “christians” “terrorist” because he was a “christian” and a republican, who bombed a building murdering 168 people? because he sure as hell was. or, does that only apply to Muslims? as far as i’m concerned, he was a radical “christian” who hated the govt. and murdering babies, didn’t phase that pos.
robert June 17th, 2016 at 13:52
I’m willing to bet a lot of the bar Patrons worked at Disney and that’s why he was observing things over there before deciding to shoot up the bar. It’s amazing how the RW nutjobs want to blame other countries at the drop of a hat.
jwong318 June 17th, 2016 at 14:59
Beacaue they are bunch of CONMAN, pretending to be a good Christian! The name RepubliCON said everything. This party is a joke. Especially their FoxNews Netwoks TV, Fair and Balanced, yeah right, fair and balanced my ass.
Ron Theison June 17th, 2016 at 15:59
The most gays have to fear from Christians is that they won’t be able to get a cake baked by one of them, meanwhile it’s some members of the “religion of peace” who will either throw them from roofs, (ISIS), hang them from cranes (Iran) or shoot them dead in nightclubs here in the USA.
Chip01 June 17th, 2016 at 16:25
You seem happy
You have short term memory, I fear
Gay bashing and attacked on gay establishment have been going on in America for decades … And yes, by “Christians” for the most part.
Ron Theison June 17th, 2016 at 23:19
Oh really? How many have been killed – certainly not 49.
Chip01 June 17th, 2016 at 23:28
You seem happy
Ron, when you were typing out your reply, it never dawned on you that there could possible be a 3rd option, an option where I get to live in a country where a religion isn’t going to dominate me, and kill me?
bpollen June 17th, 2016 at 16:33
Pastor says victims of Orlando shooting “deserved what they got”
http://www.kwwl.com/story/32245992/2016/06/17/pastor-says-victims-of-orlando-shooting-deserved-what-they-got
Christian Pastor Calls for Killing All Gay People
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w83kIAfuKoE
Ed VanDyke June 17th, 2016 at 18:04
He also says killing gays fights pedophilia (which, ironically the Bible categorically endorses)…
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/travel/travel_news/article-3639262/Orlando-shooting-victims-targeted-pastor-s-hate-filled-rant.html
bpollen June 18th, 2016 at 01:41
Conform, or our Loving Gawd will torment you for eternity! Did I mention how loving Gawd is?
Hirightnow June 17th, 2016 at 17:47
As usual, you’ve opened your stupid mouth without using that lump of pudding in your flat skull. that somehow enables you to type.
Swear to god,I’m starting to think you’re a poe, your comments are so obviously wrong.
Also, homosexuality isn’t prohibited by the Qu’ran.
Ron Theison June 17th, 2016 at 23:29
What I say is true and you know it and all I am trying to do is point out the craziness of your argument. Muslim dominated countries are not gay people’s friends.
Red Mann June 18th, 2016 at 01:06
Well, duh, of course Islamic countries proscribe gays, they got it from the Old Testament, the same place fundamentalist Christians do. The difference is that in formerly Christianity dominated countries, the power of the church to imprison and murder was taken away from them, in Islamic countries the religious leaders are calling the shots. Interestingly enough, the right wing of this country is trying to insert religious control back into the government and some extremist branches of Christianity, like the Reconstructionists, want to overthrow the Constitution and replace it with OT Biblical law, complete with stonings. What it boils down to, Ron, is that extremist religions are not gay people’s friends.
whatthe46 June 18th, 2016 at 01:27
ronnie boy isn’t gay friendly either, (or so it appears) that is unless he’s gay like the Mateen and he has to pretend to be anti-gay. ronnie boys with his attitude, lol, they do it all the time. maybe if he and Mateen had met on a gay site, they could have been happy together and move to a place of acceptance. but, no, Mateen had to kill and ronnie boy has to bash. wait, Mateen did that too huh? i wonder if ronnie boy has any AK’S.
Red Mann June 18th, 2016 at 01:36
Just watched Rachel Maddow talking about gays full of self hatred, especially if they are part of a gay-hating religion, turning their internal self-loathing outward as violent homophobia. She had a British Muslim who had been a radical Islamist on the verge of terrorist activity, who stepped back and questioned what he was doing, he also acknowledged he was gay. Now he is working to staunch the virulent Islamist behavior.
whatthe46 June 18th, 2016 at 03:35
GOOD FOR HIM! it’s not a damn disease. you don’t catch “the gay.”
whatthe46 June 18th, 2016 at 01:20
ROTFLMFAO! you sure have profected stupidity in a way i would never believed was even possible. well done dumb ass.
bpollen June 18th, 2016 at 02:08
Clue: Orlando.
Question: What makes you think gays are safe in Christian dominated USA! USA! USA?
Hirightnow June 18th, 2016 at 07:23
“Conservative fundamentalist dominated countries are not gay people’s friends.”
fify…notice the lack of any specific religion…
jwong318 June 17th, 2016 at 18:40
Being Gay is not something you can choose from but there are few people is being gay for no reasons. Most of them are not. So, blaming the gays people is an idiocy of thinking.
Red Mann June 17th, 2016 at 21:22
Religion is a thing you chose.
bpollen June 18th, 2016 at 02:04
Most children don’t. I have some respect for the Amish and Mennonites who have the Rumspringa – when they traditionally get the chance to see the outer world and decide if they want that or to stay in the community. A tradition of giving them free choice ain’t that common.
whatthe46 June 17th, 2016 at 21:47
please explain to me, why a person would CHOOSE to be GAY for NO reason. what’s the attraction to wanton discrimination? if you can wrap a reasoning or even come up with an explanation, then something is wrong with you.
jwong318 June 18th, 2016 at 01:30
That people is having another problems. mentally or others. But being gay is not something you can choose. First of all, I’m not gay. And you are one of the IDIOT.
whatthe46 June 18th, 2016 at 03:41
YOU SAID: “…but there are few people is being gay for no reasons.” (and i’m not even going to get on your case about your damn grammar throughout your post.) that being said, where did i suggest that you were gay in my post? oh, wait, i didn’t. you did. BE FREE YOU FOOL! be happy about who you are. if you’re gay you’re gay. Mr. Defensive.
Red Mann June 17th, 2016 at 21:22
Except for the Christians that want to kill them or have them killed, Swanson, Wiles, Shoebat, Anderson, Jimenez et al. Don’t forget Lively, Perkins, Fischer and more who just want them in jail and/or the closet.
Ron Theison June 17th, 2016 at 23:22
That’s right – you love the Muslims more than Christians. Your bias against Christians is showing here. The wacko Muslims want to kill us all, gay straight, or whatever. I am heartened that I have read news reports that some gays are starting to smarten up and are availing themselves of their 2nd Amendment rights.
Red Mann June 17th, 2016 at 23:57
Like most RW trolls, you jump to wild conclusions based on your own behavior. Pointing out extremist behavior by Christians automatically means I support and “love” Muslims and I’m “biased” against Christians.
Do you know any Muslims? You assume each and every Muslim is a terrorist because of the actions of some Muslims, but when Christians or right wing freaks kill and murder it is just the actions of individuals, nothing to do with their ideology. That makes you a hypocrite, Ron, and a not very bright one.
As far as your all too predictable ammosexual comments, it is probably the stupidest thing in the world to imagine that having more guns in a situation like that would improve things. Sure, more bullets being wildly shot in an enclosed space, multiplying the body count makes sense.
whatthe46 June 18th, 2016 at 00:39
you know, when the Aurora shooting happened, gun nuts and RWNJ gun nuts and of course the NRA, stated, if those in the theatre had guns they could have fired back. well, hells bells, how fk’n much sense would that have made? in the dark, with smoke bombs, and everyone shooting in every direction, not knowing, who was the asshole that started it. there would have been more than or at least 100 dead. 50 being the “good” guy with a gun, and 50 being the innocent ones w/o a gun. oh, wait, guess who survived, the “asshole” that started it. do these idiots not comprehend anything?
Red Mann June 18th, 2016 at 00:59
I’ve argued with people like this before and they are all convinced that they would be able to bring down the bad guy, they would stand up to the bad guy and everyone else was a chicken-sh!t wimp. They seem to have watched too many westerns and action movies and think the real world is just like them.
As long as the NRA and its idiot cousin GOA can influence politics, specifically the Republican Party and some Blue Dog Democrats, we will never see an end to it.
whatthe46 June 18th, 2016 at 01:14
like i’ve said, the “good guy” with a gun, thought he could save the damn day right, well, wrong. a guy shot his wife/girlfriend in the leg at walgreens, she worked there and they were in an argument outside, a “good guy” who was carrying, decided he’d “save the damn day.” so, while the “bad guy” with a gun got in his car to leave, the “good guy” decided to jump in front of the “bad guys” car and aimed his gun at him, like he’s fk’n Rambo, well, what do you think happened? i’ll tell you, spare you the suspense, the “bad guy” with a gun, who just proved he could pull a trigger, stepped out of his car and put one right in the “good guy” idiot’s head. yeah, he’s dead. the “bad guy” already proved he’s not afraid to use his gun, the “good guy” well, what do we hear in movies all the time, shoot, stop talking or pretending or else, yeah, you’re dead.
Red Mann June 18th, 2016 at 01:19
It’s part of the mythical rugged individualist, exceptionalist, hard working American who’s smarter than them pointy-headed, pencil-neck, elitist college boys. Mostly they’re dumber than dirt and damned proud of it.
whatthe46 June 18th, 2016 at 01:28
apparently so.
jwong318 June 18th, 2016 at 01:37
Yep, they think more guns is saver. Nobody should owned AR15…Get a good common-sense here. If anybody want to rob u with AR15, u will be dead before u grabbed your guns. More Guns policy is Idiotic. USA is the number 1 Country in the world having people kill by guns and owned guns. I just talked to some friends in Canada. After they banned the guns, they are saving people live. Get the FACTS! Bunch of Idiots, talking without FACTS or Reserach, too much listening to Sean Hannity and Limbaugh will make you DUMB!
whatthe46 June 18th, 2016 at 03:42
laughing.
bpollen June 18th, 2016 at 01:56
Pointing out Christian hypocrisy is bias? Facts are bias? Claims of bias from a guy who says “The wacko Muslims want to kill us all, gay straight, or whatever.” How does that Christian phrase go??? Oh, it’s right on the tip of my tongue… {{snap}} it’s “And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother’s eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?”
Can I call you Wood-Eye?
Jenjen June 17th, 2016 at 16:07
Protect gay rights (to be armed and defend themselves.)
Shoot back.
Mike June 17th, 2016 at 21:06
Worked great for the off duty cop and six others that confronted the shooter before he ran into the club … 2 of them were shot and it looks like cops shot some of the people in all the excitement…
http://www.breitbart.com/national-security/2016/06/15/orlando-police-chief-pulse-jihad-victims-may-hit-police/
But absolutely, your idea about people drinking in a club armed with deadly weapons sounds a lot safer….
Jenjen June 17th, 2016 at 21:09
Security could be armed safely, maybe even bartenders?
I don’t suggest drinking and carrying, btw. But in general, i support their right to carry and protect themselves.
Mike June 17th, 2016 at 21:14
I own guns also, but the myth of private citizens stopping a gunman is just that…the element of surprise wins almost every time and more shooters only mean more casualties
whatthe46 June 17th, 2016 at 21:16
right. and that worked out so well for the guy who was carrying and decided to stand in front of a car aiming a gun at someone who just shot his wife/girlfriend in the damn leg. oh wait, it didn’t work out so well for him, the guy shot him first, right between the damn eyes.
Mike June 17th, 2016 at 22:04
Security was armed….he was an off duty Orlando cop …he was at the door and had a shoot out with the guy and 6 other cops … He still got inside …are you starting to see the advantage an AR-15 …???
whatthe46 June 18th, 2016 at 20:15
nope. he doesn’t see the advantage. he’ll just decide that everyone should now own an AR. damn idiots.
whatthe46 June 17th, 2016 at 21:13
i love the snark in you sweetie.
Amersham46 June 17th, 2016 at 21:08
Sometime looking at reality is not very nice
rostee67 June 17th, 2016 at 22:51
Well, guess that just about stamps out “Deranged Donald” Trump (R) claim that the LGBT really loves him! Think “Deranged Donald” misunderstood that the LGBT does NOT love him, but the LBGT actually “Loathes” him and his republican party of HATE!
William June 18th, 2016 at 10:00
It’s a conundrum. It’s possible that the conflicts will short out a lot of right wing brains.
whatthe46 June 18th, 2016 at 20:08
that is a problem for them isn’t it? LOL
Robert M. Snyder June 18th, 2016 at 10:40
I suspect that very few people of ANY faith would condone what happened at Pulse. But the overwhelming majority of Muslims worldwide take a dim view of homosexual behavior. If we’re going to criticize Trump supporters for their views on morality, then why not criticize Muslims as well? And it’s not just homosexual behavior. The vast majority of Muslims worldwide also believe that abortion is immoral. If you select 1000 people at random from the worldwide Muslim population, most of them will take the same positions on moral issues as Jerry Falwell.
2013 Pew survey of Muslims in 36 countries:
http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-morality/
Comicus June 18th, 2016 at 18:09
What is your point, Robert? Less than 1% of US citizens are Muslims. They are not the driving force behind the US anti-homosexuality movement. Christians are, so they will be the primary focus of those who defend the rights of homosexuals. The arguments against Christians forcing their religious views on others by government fiat applies also to Muslims.
Robert M. Snyder June 18th, 2016 at 21:37
“What is your point, Robert?”
The title of this blog post refers to “the right”, which is generally interpreted to mean people who have conservative values. If the Pew survey is accurate, the vast majority of Muslims do not hold progressive values on issues such as homosexual behavior and abortion. They are more “right” than “left” on these issues. So in this respect, the Christian right and the Muslim right have a lot in common.
Liberals seem to think that the US should open its arms to large numbers of migrants/refugees from predominantly Muslim countries such as Syria and Afghanistan. Be careful what you wish for. If large numbers of people from these countries are given US citizenship, they may someday vote for the same politicians as right wing Christians. The two groups may discover that they share a lot of core values and form a voting bloc.
The newly-elected Muslim mayor of London is now seeking to put measures in place to restrict the use of bikini-clad models in advertising displayed in public spaces because he thinks this type of advertising causes young women to become obsessed with their physical appearance. I happen to agree with him, but I’m not sure whether it is wise for government to attempt to regulate that sort of thing.
My point is that Muslims tend to hold a lot of conservative values on issues like dressing modestly, adultery, homosexual behavior, and abortion. At this point in time, liberals seem to give Muslims a pass on these points of disagreement, probably because, as you stated, Muslims are a small percentage of the US population. If there comes a time when Muslims are as numerous as Baptists in the US, I suspect that liberals will be far less tolerant of Muslim culture.
whatthe46 June 18th, 2016 at 21:57
blah, blah, blah. “…US should open its arms to large numbers of migrants/refugees from
predominantly Muslim countries such as Syria and Afghanistan.” why are they needing refuge? oh wait, we destabilized their country. we go there and murder 100’s of thousands and then wipe our hands of the destruction. and people like you have the audacity to get testy.
Robert M. Snyder June 18th, 2016 at 23:00
Over 400,000 people have died in the civil war that is taking place in Syria. Vladimir Putin entered the conflict in order to prop up Bashar al Assad. Assad and Putin have been killing Syrians and destroying their homes and infrastructure. It is no wonder that so many people have left the country.
Now 51 diplomats from the US State Department have published a letter stating their belief that the US needs to remove Assad from power. But Russia wants Assad to remain in power.
After the collapse of the Soviet Union, Russia wanted to keep operating its naval base at Sevastopol in the Ukrainian province of Crimea. So the Ukrainian government leased it to Russia. But in 2008, they informed Russia that the lease would not be extended beyond 2017. Sevastopol is Russia’s only warm-water port, providing its only direct access to the Mediterranean.
So Putin captured Crimea and annexed it to Russia. Nobel prize winner Mikhail Gorbachev recently gave a speech in which he stated that under similar circumstances he would have done the same thing.
NATO has recently been moving military personnel and weapons into the Baltic countries, and Ukraine in particular. Hillary Clinton supports this and she made the point that Ukraine is on NATO’s doorstep. But she failed to mention that Ukraine is also on Russia’s doorstep.
The Russian people are feeling threatened by what they see as NATO aggression. How would US citizens feel if a Russian-backed military alliance were positioning larger numbers of troops and weapons on the Canadian and Mexican borders?
There is a real risk that the Ukrainian conflict could escalate. If that happens, we could see large numbers of Ukrainian refugees streaming into greater Europe. There is still time to ratchet down the tensions between the US and Russia. But NATO seems to be ratcheting up the tension in Ukraine. And now 51 US diplomats are calling for a more aggressive stance against Bashar al Assad in Syria.
I do not know whether or not Russia represents a threat to US interests. But it appears that many people, including Hillary Clinton, do see Russia, or Russian aggression, as a threat, and they are calling for a more significant response by US and NATO military. Many of the NATO member countries have recently increased their military budgets.
You said “oh wait, we destabilized their country.”. Your point has validity, but it’s not the whole picture. Russia and Iran have also played active roles in the Syrian conflict.
If we want to prevent Ukraine from descending into the same predicament as Syria, shouldn’t we be engaging with Russia to understand their concerns about the NATO buildup in the Baltic countries? Hillary and the 51 diplomats at the State Department do not seem to be looking ways to ratchet down the tensions in Ukraine and Syria.
So if President Hillary Clinton and NATO keep pressuring Russia, and the Ukrainian conflict heats up, don’t be surprised if the next wave of refugees comes from Ukraine. If Gorbachev understands why Putin annexed the Crimea, why can’t Hillary understand it? Russians feel as if they are under siege. They were humiliated by the collapse of the Soviet Union. Why can’t the West treat Putin with greater respect? But instead, he is demonized by the western media on a daily basis.
We are told that Putin is a “dictator”. But opinion polls in Russia consistently find that Putin enjoys 60-80% approval in Russia. Polls conducted by outside polling organizations get the same results as polls conducted by Russian organizations. Putin’s policies are popular in Russia. The Russian people do not like the NATO buildup on their borders.
We need thoughtful debate on our relationship with Russia. But all we are getting is slogans.
whatthe46 June 18th, 2016 at 23:26
bushy/cheney invaded a country and lied to do so. i don’t give a rats ass about what pu$$y putin did, it’s what we did. and we are responsible for them.
Robert M. Snyder June 18th, 2016 at 23:42
Do you even know why the Syrian opposition forces are fighting against the Assad government? There are many opposition groups, and the US government has never been able to figure out who the “good guys” are. Apparently that’s why we never armed any of the opposition forces.
Let me remind you that 400,000 people have died in the Syrian civil war. We are not forcing them to fight. They could stop fighting tomorrow if both sides would agree to stop. How, exactly, is the US keeping this fight going? And if the US is responsible for their *continued* fighting, why hasn’t President Obama put a stop to it?
The situation is much more complex than you think.
whatthe46 June 18th, 2016 at 23:56
“… US government has never been able to figure out who the “good guys” are…” and you are treating everyone and thinking everyone who is muslim as a bad person. but, you won’t look at white people and think, oh they must be RWNJ “christians” who are terrorist, even though some are right? stop talking to me.
Robert M. Snyder June 19th, 2016 at 00:18
I pointed out that the vast majority of Muslims surveyed by Pew said that homosexuality and abortion are immoral. I never said that this was bad. I just pointed out that their beliefs are very similar to those of many conservative Christians.
You obviously see the world through hate-colored glasses. You seem to think that everyone who challenges your beliefs is motivated by hate. I am not motivated by hate.
“stop talking to me.”
You initiated this conversation by responding to my post. If you didn’t want to hear my thoughts, then why did you respond?
whatthe46 June 19th, 2016 at 00:52
if you keep protecting the ignorant racist pundits and their hatred for anyone unlike themselves you’re no better. stop it. one guy, who happens to be muslim, but an American born citizen, who had it out for gays, basically because he hated himself, isn’t a reason to bash all Muslims as gay haters. have you been paying attention to the repukes, the AG’s the governors of state, the “christian” pastor’s praising this. they aren’t disturbed that the guy was muslim, they are happy that it was the LGBT community. but, they don’t want to say it was about gays, they want to say it was about Americans and ISIS. that’s b.s. furthermore, this has their heads spinning. muslims don’t have a market on the media, but, white males do. and they are the FOX and every racist and bigoted network out there, hating on everyone. but, lets not talk about that.
Robert M. Snyder June 19th, 2016 at 01:11
Why do you assume that I support the actions of these conservatives/Republicans? Do you automatically assume that a Muslim you speak with supports terrorism unless he or she explicitly denounces it? Of course not. So why not afford me the same courtesy? It is insulting when you lump me in with the most ignorant things that Republicans do. There is great diversity of opinion among Republicans, just as among Democrats.
I believe in treating each person I meet as an individual. When I worked at a university, I became acquainted with two Muslim men, and one of them even attended my wedding, in a Catholic church. Like many academics and professionals, these men were pretty open-minded. But when read the Pew survey results, it seemed very clear to me that the majority of Muslims worldwide think differently than the men I knew. Pointing out that fact, and discussing its implications, is not hateful. It is just dealing with the facts as they exist.
I am not trying to shape the world. I am just trying to understand it. For example, I really don’t know what the US should do with regard to Russia. But I think Americans need to consider the implications of our current posture, which seems pretty aggressive to me.
whatthe46 June 19th, 2016 at 01:26
…
Comicus June 19th, 2016 at 01:48
This is all because you’re feeling butthurt because you feel the Muslims are getting a ‘free pass’ for being bigots just like you conservatives. Hahahaha. I don’t see any alliance in the future either. Latinos also tend to be socially conservative but they don’t fit into the GOP either, since it is a de facto whites only party at this point.
That was nothing but a poorly constructed tu quoque defense, Robert. Most people do not want the capricious edicts of other’s gods crammed down their throats, Muslim, Christian, Hindu or otherwise. You should know better than to imply otherwise.
Robert M. Snyder June 19th, 2016 at 03:38
“the Muslims are getting a ‘free pass’ for being bigots”
I pointed out the fact that the majority of Muslims polled by Pew indicated a belief that homosexual behavior is immoral. I did not make a value judgment about that. But you just did when you applied the word “bigot”.
I would argue that people who are opposed to homosexual behavior are NOT bigots, regardless of whether they are Christian or Muslim. At least you’re being consistent by labeling BOTH groups as bigots.
whatthe46 June 19th, 2016 at 03:49
they are bigots when they don’t practice what they preach and are in the closet, or worse, molesters.
Comicus June 19th, 2016 at 12:33
When you started out, you were whining about liberals defending Muslims and now you’re defending them. That’s priceless, Robert.
Robert M. Snyder June 19th, 2016 at 12:42
No, I wasn’t whining about liberals defending Muslims. I was whining about liberals treating Muslims differently than Christians. I believe in holding everyone to the same standards. I respect those who sincerely believe that homosexual behavior is moral, and I also respect those who believe it to be immoral. Regardless of your position on that issue, you need to be consistent and hold everyone to the same standard. If you’re going to label Christians opposed to homosexual behavior as bigots, then you need to apply the same label to the 1.6 billion Muslims who share that belief.
Comicus June 20th, 2016 at 00:33
Please provide us with examples of this.
Robert M. Snyder June 20th, 2016 at 00:57
Sure. Let’s start with this blog post where Alan uses the word bigot in the title when referring to a Christian baker:
http://www.alan.com/2015/12/29/bakery-finally-pays-bigot-fine-for-not-making-cake-for-gay-couple/
The word bigot was also used in the same way many times by readers who posted comments. I don’t object to the use of that word. But I have never encountered any blog post on this site in which someone used the word bigot to describe a Muslim who objects to homosexual behavior or gay marriage.
According to the Pew study, >90% of Muslims worldwide believe that homosexual behavior is immoral. But only 1% of the US population is Muslim. Consequently, the readers who post here, who are mostly American, are not affected by Muslims who hold these beliefs to the extent that they are affected by Christians who hold the same beliefs.
For this reason it is understandable that the people who post here would feel a greater sense of angst toward Christians who hold these beliefs than toward Muslims. But I think this double standard needs to be exposed and corrected so that we are not perpetuating a false impression that Christians less tolerant of homosexuality than Muslims.
Comicus June 20th, 2016 at 18:10
I asked for examples of Muslims campaigning publicly against homosexuals getting a free pass. You couldn’t find any, could you? You know why? I do.
There are myriad Christians campaigning publicly against homosexuals, individually and in groups, rich and poor, patrician and plebeian. There is not a parallel phenomenon in the Muslim community. They’re not the ones cramming the word of their god down our throats in legislatures and statehouses nationwide.
It’s not a false impression that Christians are less tolerant of homosexuality than Muslims in the US. We are constantly inundated with the vociferous and manifold declarations of Christian intolerance of homosexuality. We see the unceasing efforts of Christian politicians and voters to abridge the rights of homosexuals.
Robert M. Snyder June 20th, 2016 at 20:35
You are correct. Muslims in the US are not publically voicing objection to gay marriage or homosexual behavior. In fact, Muslims in the US are staying out of most political debates. In the past, a large percentage of the Muslims who have emigrated to the US have been college students and professionals such as engineers. I became acquainted with two such men when I worked in a university research lab. One of them even attended my Catholic wedding. I would love to have those men as neighbors, and I am not concerned about how they might vote in US elections.
But many people are now advocating that the US should admit large numbers of refugees from countries that are hostile to gays. If the Pew survey is accurate, then we can expect that the majority of these refugees would hold the same views expressed by the thousands who participated in the survey.
Even if none of the current and potential Muslim immigrants engage in political activism, they can and will vote in US elections. Many of our recent elections have been won or lost by very thin margins. A few hundred thousand new immigrants who believe that homosexual behavior and abortion are immoral could change the outcome of future elections at the state and federal level. So without uttering a word publically, they could have precisely the same effect on election outcomes as fundamentalist Christians such as Jerry Falwell.
If you care about gay rights and abortion rights, why would you choose to admit hundreds of thousands of people who believe that homosexual behavior and abortion are immoral? If anybody should be concerned about mass immigration of Arab Muslims, it should be people on the left.
Comicus June 21st, 2016 at 00:39
In other words, you have nothing.
Robert M. Snyder June 21st, 2016 at 00:53
If you’re looking only for unquestioning affirmation of orthodox liberal beliefs, then you’re right. I have nothing.
Enjoy your fantasies.
Comicus June 22nd, 2016 at 16:59
LOL. This is why you are wrong and have been unsuccessful in rebutting any of my statements. Here is the dictionary definition of intolerant:
1: unable or unwilling to endure
2a : unwilling to grant equal freedom of expression especially in religious matters
b : unwilling to grant or share social, political, or professional rights : bigoted
3: exhibiting physiological intolerance
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/intolerant
Robert M. Snyder June 22nd, 2016 at 17:27
You act as if tolerance is the only thing that matters. Some things should not be tolerated. I refuse to tolerate the subjugation of women and gays that is widely practiced in Arab countries.
Tolerance is a worthy principle, but so is women’s equality. Sometimes you have to strike a balance. German just admitted a million mostly Arab Muslims. Wait and see how things work out for women and gays in Germany.
Have you seen this NY Times article from last December?
“Norway offers migrants a lesson in how to treat women”
“A course manual sets out a simple rule that all asylum seekers need to learn and follow: “To force someone into sex is not permitted in Norway, even when you are married to that person.” It skirts the issue of religious differences, noting that while Norway has long been largely Christian, it is “not religion that sets the laws” and that, whatever a person’s faith, “the rules and laws nevertheless have to be followed.” In Denmark, lawmakers are pushing to have such sex education included in mandatory language classes for refugees. The German region of Bavaria, the main entry point to Germany for asylum seekers, is already experimenting with such classes at a shelter for teenage migrants in the town of Passau.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/20/world/europe/norway-offers-migrants-a-lesson-in-how-to-treat-women.html
Given the fact that these countries find it necessary to teach these concepts, how can you NOT be concerned about large-scale immigration of Arab Muslims into the US?
OldLefty June 22nd, 2016 at 17:57
Marital rape was legal here while many on the right believed it did not exist.
The criminalization of marital rape in the United States started in the mid-1970s and by 1993 marital rape became a crime in all 50 states.
Not too long ago, the term “marital rape” was considered an oxymoron. In some U.S. states, it might as well still be one.
Lawmakers in Ohio are trying to remove archaic forms of “marital privilege” in state laws pertaining to rape, The Columbus Dispatch reports.
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/06/09/marital-rape-is-semi-legal-in-8-states.html
Donald Trump’s special counsel appears to have a very dated understanding of what constitutes rape. “You cannot rape your spouse,” Trump lieutenant Michael Cohen told the Daily Beast for an article published Monday, “and there’s very clear case law.”
It is good that they spell out the fact these are crimes here and if you don’t like it, don’t come here.
Robert M. Snyder June 22nd, 2016 at 18:39
Have you ever noticed that the Ten Commandments do not include one that says “Thou shalt not rape”? I was thinking about this recently. It seems a curious omission. But then it occurred to me that the Adultery commandment pretty much covers rape. If you’re not committing adultery, then you can’t be committing rape – except if the victim is your spouse.
So it would seem that the author of the Ten Commandments did not consider marital rape to be a sin. Just so we’re clear, I agree with the current law. All three of my sisters were separated from their husbands before they were divorced. The idea that these men would have any special privileges just because of a marriage certificate — that doesn’t even pass the smell test.
I think most men my age (mid-fifties) and younger would agree with that. It has taken many decades, but Western culture has evolved to the point where most everybody agrees that marital rape is indeed rape. But a lot of Arab Muslim men just don’t get it. One of the smaller rail lines in Germany is now offering special train compartments for women and children only, apparently because women are now afraid to travel without a male escort. Male escort? Where have I heard that before?
OldLefty June 22nd, 2016 at 19:30
I believe that the 10 commandments were written by men for men.
The problem with Islam NOW is that they have yet to have a Reformation, (although there IS http://muslimreformmovement.org).
The West supported and propped up Saudi and the radicals as a hedge against socialism for decades.
Even in the 1950s Saadat Hasan Manto wrote “Letters to Uncle Sam”
“21 February 1954
“Dear Uncle,
I wrote to you only a few days ago and here I am writing again. My admiration and respect for you are going up at about the same rate as your progress towards a decision to grant military aid to Pakistan. I tell you I feel like writing a letter a day to you
.
Regardless of India and the fuss it is making, you must sign a military pact with Pakistan. because you are seriously concerned about the stability of the world’s largest Islamic state since our mullah is the best antidote to Russian communism.
If this gang of mullahs is armed in the American style, the Soviet Union that hawks communism and socialism in our country will have to shut shop….”
He was, of course being sarcastic.
After moving with his family during Partition, he died in Bombay.
Comicus June 23rd, 2016 at 22:10
It’s a lesson that should be taught here also. Young men like Brock Tanner, white and Christian, clearly didn’t learn that lesson, nor did Brandon Vandenburg and Cory Batey. Look into college rape and you’ll see they’re not uncommon. Look into rape statistics in general, Robbie. Your whole assertion is not borne by the facts. Let’s be honest for a change. What you have a problem with are nonwhite people, especially Arab Muslims. When white boys rape girls here for real, the only response from people like you is silence and indifference while the alleged specter of rapist Arabs sends you into a foaming, rabid frenzy. I wonder why.
OldLefty June 22nd, 2016 at 17:58
I pointed out the fact that the majority of Muslims polled by Pew indicated a belief that homosexual behavior is immoral.
______
So do a lot of American Christians and Jews.
Robert M. Snyder June 22nd, 2016 at 18:25
Catholic Ireland just had a referendum on gay marriage, and they voted to allow it. Western attitudes are changing, even among Catholics and other Christians. And I am certain that many Muslims who come to America for academic and professional reasons are very willing to assimilate into Western culture. I’m not worried about Islam. I’m concerned about Arab culture. The newly-elected mayor of London is trying to restrict the content of advertising in public spaces that features scantily-clad women. Muslim men and women dress much more conservatively than many in the West. And so do the Amish for that matter. I think we can learn from other cultures. But when people come to Western countries, they need to be prepared to learn from us as well. Have you read the Pew poll that surveyed Muslims in 36 countries? What do you think would happen to women’s rights in America is a large number of non-academic and non-professional Arab Muslims gained US citizenship and voted their values?
Here’s a link to the Pew study:
http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-morality/
OldLefty June 22nd, 2016 at 19:21
That is more of a feminist thing, not a Muslim thing.
London Mayor Sadiq Khan won the praise of gender equality groups … and promoting an “ideal” body image that women must conform to.
Or :London mayor cracks down on ‘unhealthy, unrealistic’ body image ads on public transit
Jun. 15, 2016 at 1:59 PMEun Kyung Kim
TODAY
Remember when France passes bill banning ‘excessively thin’ models?
I know that PEW survey well.
That is of Islamic Republics.
People leave those countries to get away from that.
I know that Muslims in India don’t care for such hooey.
As a matter of fact, my family and friends from India say that they never saw hijab and such in the Muslim communities until the late 1980s (after so many people went to work in the Gulf.)
Ned Nutley June 18th, 2016 at 14:08
They can’t admit it because behind closed doors they are high-fiving each other and cheering!
Amersham46 June 18th, 2016 at 19:41
The same reason the can not admit that most Muslims are not terrorists
Warman1138 June 18th, 2016 at 20:22
The GOP can’t express remorse or acknowledgement because LGBT is one of the ” Got to have an enemy ” enemies they have declared through many foul means. For the GOP and their ”Fringe” supporters to even express sympathy would be an admission of guilt, failure and complicity on not only the Orlando tragedy but so many other things one can scarcely count them all.
whatthe46 June 18th, 2016 at 23:41
if it weren’t for the tatts on this girls arm, i would have sworn it was Kerry Washington.