Israel Knocks Out Gaza’s Power Plant Depriving Millions Of Electricity, Sewage, Water
Health officials said at least 85 Palestinians died in some of heaviest bombardments from air, sea and land since Israel’s offensive began on July 8 in response to rocket salvoes fired by Gaza’s dominant Hamas Islamists and their guerrilla allies.
Local hospital officials put the total number of Palestinian dead in the conflict at 1,200, most of them civilians. On the Israeli side, 53 soldiers and three civilians have been killed.
UNRWA, the main U.N. relief agency in Gaza, said it was at “breaking point” with more than 200,000 Palestinians having taken shelter in its schools and buildings following calls by Israel for civilians to evacuate whole neighborhoods before military operations.
And here’s what Hamas is saying:
Click here for reuse options!Mohammed Deif, the shadowy leader of Hamas’s armed wing, said in a voiceover message in the broadcast that Palestinians would continue confronting Israel until its blockade on Gaza – which is supported by neighboring Egypt – was lifted.
“The occupying entity will not enjoy security unless our people live in freedom and dignity,” Deif said. “There will be no ceasefire before the (Israeli) aggression is stopped and the blockade is lifted. We will not accept interim solutions.”
Copyright 2014 Liberaland
68 responses to Israel Knocks Out Gaza’s Power Plant Depriving Millions Of Electricity, Sewage, Water
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M D Reese July 29th, 2014 at 18:41
The goal here seems to be to level all the structures in Gaza, kill all the Palestinians who don’t die in the rubble, and make way for some beach front condo “settlements” for the chosen people.
Hirightnow July 29th, 2014 at 20:30
What?
No screams about “anti-Semitism”?
Alan, your site is slipping….
Robert M. Snyder July 29th, 2014 at 22:11
Palestinians and Israelis are both Semitic peoples, as are Jordanians, Syrians, Egyptians, and others. It is my understanding that the term “anti-Semitic” originated in Europe at a time when Jews were essentially the only Semitic people living there, so in that context “anti-Semitic” and “anti-Jewish” were synonymous. When applied to people living in the Middle East, “anti-Semitic” could mean “anti-Palestinian” or “anti-Syrian” as well as “anti-Israeli”.
Spirit of America July 30th, 2014 at 00:30
“…”anti-Semitic” could mean “anti-Palestinian” or “anti-Syrian” as well as “anti-Israeli”.”
But it doesn’t, it’s come to mean anti-jewish as most reasonable and informed individuals use it.
Robert M. Snyder July 30th, 2014 at 01:37
If you’re speaking with a Palestinian and you ask him whether he is anti-Semitic, he’s probably going to think you don’t know squat about Semitic people such as himself. It’s like asking a guy from Brooklyn if he’s anti-New Yorker because he hates people who live in Manhattan. How can US diplomats expect to be taken seriously when they use such nonsensical terminology?
Spirit of America July 30th, 2014 at 13:28
Then you haven’t traveled much in that region… even Al-Aksa uses the term to mean against the Jews.
M D Reese July 30th, 2014 at 15:54
You’re really full of it.
Spirit of America July 30th, 2014 at 00:31
Actually, the goal is to defeat a terrorist organization that keeps launching rockets into a nations borders trying to purposely kill citizens, not military targets.
Jeff Dickey July 30th, 2014 at 02:32
So says another terrorist organisation with overwhelming military superiority and the unwavering fealty of a declining superpower.
Oh, yeah, I did get the memo: “Never again” means “never again to us, only by ‘us’, whenever the hell we feel like having Uncle Sugar pay for it.” Still waiting for the bill sent in reply to be paid.
Remember USS Liberty!
Spirit of America July 30th, 2014 at 13:26
So, besides being an anti-Semite, you all on your own declare Israel a terrorist organization(not a single nation has done that while many have declared hamas as such)? wow.
Not to mention you are sticking up for some VERY stupid people since even you say Israel has “overwhelming military superiority” and yet hamas still picks a fight w/them? LOL, stupidity incarnate your side seems to be.
What I find very disturbing is that you seem to be ok with hamas… who according to their own charter calls for the death of EVERY Jew, not just the Israeli nation… kind of sick if you ask me.
Bunya July 30th, 2014 at 14:14
Regarding your “anti-semite” comment, I refer you to Robert Snyders post below for the definition.
Spirit of America July 30th, 2014 at 14:21
I did, and replied.
M D Reese July 30th, 2014 at 15:53
Since when are Jews the only Semites? Being critical of Israel or Judaism is not being anti-Semitic. And as for hamas wanting to kill every Jew–what exactly is Israel doing to Palestinians in Gaza? Telling them to evacuate is a sick joke.
Spirit of America July 30th, 2014 at 23:39
“And as for hamas wanting to kill every Jew”…
it is in their charter, literally, it is part of their Raison d’être.
“what exactly is Israel doing to Palestinians in Gaza”…
I’m sorry, but this was plain assinine… they drop leaflets, they give alarms, they TELL the enemy what/when/where the bombs will fall, and you have the audacity to compare that to firing thousands of rockets aimed solely at a civilian population??!! The Israelis could have literally slaughtered the entire Gaza population by now, entirely. Being your so-called ‘critical’ is one thing, but comparing those two entities is blatantly anti-semetic or anti-jewish or however you want it worded, but it’s obvious a hate-the-jewish people bias.
Hamas declared war on Israel, yet you defend Hamas and act like they are the victim…. good lord….
M D Reese July 30th, 2014 at 15:50
Yeah–what’s the proper kill ratio? 500 Palestinians for every Jew? If Israel really wanted peace, they could have it. But they’re too greedy–and they’ve got a lot of whiz-bang military hardware, thanks to our tax dollars. Here in the US we have enough right wing religious nut jobs who have been tossing gas on the fire for decades because they believe that christ will return if the middle east armageddon can be brought about. Israel is not our friend.
burqa August 1st, 2014 at 13:51
That just shows how damned stupid Hamas is. It was no secret that Israel possessed the Iron Dome system.
Israel will not have peace until Hamas and the Palestinians decide to change their goals. Hamas refuses to change. Their goals remain unchanged from their founding. Hamas is dedicated to committing war crimes until Israel is defeated and liquidated and then installing an Islamic state with their version of Sharia law, which they intend to then export to their neighbors.
“HAMAS: Politics, Charity, and Terrorism in the Service of Jihad,” by Matthew Levitt is recommended to get a good idea as to whom you are supporting.
burqa August 1st, 2014 at 13:44
Hamas would consider that a victory, Mr. Reese. This is how warped their thinking is.
M D Reese July 29th, 2014 at 18:41
The goal here seems to be to level all the structures in Gaza, kill all the Palestinians who don’t die in the rubble, and make way for some beach front condo “settlements” for the chosen people.
Hirightnow July 29th, 2014 at 20:30
What?
No screams about “anti-Semitism”?
Alan, your site is slipping….
Robert M. Snyder July 29th, 2014 at 22:11
Palestinians and Israelis are both Semitic peoples, as are Jordanians, Syrians, Egyptians, and others. It is my understanding that the term “anti-Semitic” originated in Europe at a time when Jews were essentially the only Semitic people living there, so in that context “anti-Semitic” and “anti-Jewish” were synonymous. When applied to people living in the Middle East, “anti-Semitic” could mean “anti-Palestinian” or “anti-Syrian” as well as “anti-Israeli”.
Spirit of America July 30th, 2014 at 00:30
“…”anti-Semitic” could mean “anti-Palestinian” or “anti-Syrian” as well as “anti-Israeli”.”
But it doesn’t, it’s come to mean anti-jewish as most reasonable and informed individuals use it.
Robert M. Snyder July 30th, 2014 at 01:37
If you’re speaking with a Palestinian and you ask him whether he is anti-Semitic, he’s probably going to think you don’t know squat about Semitic people such as himself. It’s like asking a guy from Brooklyn if he’s anti-New Yorker because he hates people who live in Manhattan. How can US diplomats expect to be taken seriously when they use such nonsensical terminology?
Spirit of America July 30th, 2014 at 13:28
Then you haven’t traveled much in that region… even Al-Aksa uses the term to mean against the Jews.
M D Reese July 30th, 2014 at 15:54
You’re really full of it.
Spirit of America July 30th, 2014 at 00:31
Actually, the goal is to defeat a terrorist organization that keeps launching rockets into a nations borders trying to purposely kill citizens, not military targets.
Jeff Dickey July 30th, 2014 at 02:32
So says another terrorist organisation with overwhelming military superiority and the unwavering fealty of a declining superpower.
Oh, yeah, I did get the memo: “Never again” means “never again to us, only by ‘us’, whenever the hell we feel like having Uncle Sugar pay for it.” Still waiting for the bill sent in reply to be paid.
Remember USS Liberty!
M D Reese July 30th, 2014 at 15:50
Yeah–what’s the proper kill ratio? 500 Palestinians for every Jew? If Israel really wanted peace, they could have it. But they’re too greedy–and they’ve got a lot of whiz-bang military hardware, thanks to our tax dollars. Here in the US we have enough right wing religious nut jobs who have been tossing gas on the fire for decades because they believe that christ will return if the middle east armageddon can be brought about. Israel is not our friend.
burqa August 1st, 2014 at 13:51
That just shows how damned stupid Hamas is. It was no secret that Israel possessed the Iron Dome system.
Israel will not have peace until Hamas and the Palestinians decide to change their goals. Hamas refuses to change. Their goals remain unchanged from their founding. Hamas is dedicated to committing war crimes until Israel is defeated and liquidated and then installing an Islamic state with their version of Sharia law, which they intend to then export to their neighbors.
“HAMAS: Politics, Charity, and Terrorism in the Service of Jihad,” by Matthew Levitt is recommended to get a good idea as to whom you are supporting.
burqa August 1st, 2014 at 13:44
Hamas would consider that a victory, Mr. Reese. This is how warped their thinking is.
burqa July 29th, 2014 at 20:38
OP: “Israel Knocks Out Gaza’s Power Plant Depriving Millions Of Electricity, Sewage, Water”
Well, yes. That’s the kid of thing that happens in a war.
More of the same will happen each time Hamas decides to start a war.
One of these days they will figure out that fighting a nation that is far more powerful is stupid.
One of these days they will figure out that nonviolent protest is the way to go.
But right now, the ninnies elected by the Palestinians are following a bizarre strategy that interprets defeat as being victory and death and suffering of their people as success.
The Palestinian people deserve better from their leaders.
They need new leaders who will not bring this kind of thing upon the Palestinian people.
I don’t know, maybe there aren’t any.
Bunya July 30th, 2014 at 14:08
Israel isn’t necessarily more powerful. They simply have the support of the US to supply them with state-of-the-art military equipment and that emboldens them.
burqa August 1st, 2014 at 13:41
Bunya: “Israel isn’t necessarily more powerful.”
Now you’re arguing just for the sake of arguing.
Bunya: “They simply have the support of the US to supply them with state-of-the-art military equipment and that emboldens them.”
A common misperception as to what makes a military powerful.
In 1982 the Israeli air force took on the Syrian air force which was equipped with Soviet fighters considered equivalent to the planes the Israelis deployed. Israel swept them from the skies with the final score being:
Israel – 86 Syrian fighters shot down.
Syria – 0 Israeli fighters shot down.
In the 1948 war, the surrounding Arab countries had the better equipment as well as superior manpower, yet the Israelis won. This is commonly seen in the history of warfare. Superior tactics, operations, strategy and training often are more important factors than hardware.
The current conflict was not caused by Israel having superior equipment, it was caused by Hamas deciding to start a war. Now Hamas is once again getting the Palestinians killed in large numbers because Hamas is so damned stupid they bring slingshots to gunfights.
One hopes the Palestinians will see that supporting terrorism and repeated war is not in their best interests and the way to go is the path of nonviolence.
Bunya August 1st, 2014 at 17:13
Think about this for a minute. What if Iran (for example) came to the US, claiming Arizona was built on Muslim holy land and forced all it’s residence to move? You’d see all hell break loose. And after the crusades, the inquisition and the Iraq fiasco, don’t you think the Muslims have had enough western arrogance? Now, Hamas may very well be using the Palestinian people (perhaps against their will) to support terrorism, but on the other hand, the Palestinians may feel they’re backed into a corner and think employing the help of Hamas is their only recourse.
I’m not picking sides, I’m just playing devil’s advocate because I really don’t have all the facts. Nobody does.
Also, I’ve read your history on Israeli victories. Don’t you think all those achievements may be lulling Netanyahu into a false sense of security? His luck will eventually run out and, if he keeps flexing his muscle, this whole ordeal could blow up in his face.
burqa August 1st, 2014 at 20:34
I’m not getting the Iaranian invasion comparison. But that’s the kick of it – Hamas got elected (after Bush insisted they have scheduled elections when Fatah wanted to delay them because they were not ready).
The path the Palestinians should be on is one of nonviolence. Taking on Israel is stupid.
I don’t care much for Netanyahu, but Israelis across the political spectrum have rallied to him to a degree not seen in the last 2 major conflicts. I don’t think he has been lulled into a false sense of security. He is responding to real attacks and real threats from a group that is and has always been dedicated to wiping out Israel and establishing an Islamic state ruled under their version of sharia, which they then intend to export to the rest of the region. They have had no interest in establishing a functioning, peaceful government ready to join the community of nations.
Read Leavitt’s book. He quotes the Hamas charter and leaders extensively. Everything they do in the social and political sphere is to support those goals.
burqa August 1st, 2014 at 20:43
If the Iranians coming to Arizona to the reestablishment of Israel, the comparison does not apply. For one, there is no history of Iranians having a country in Arizona and it has never been their homeland or site of religious sites. Iran never suffered a Holocaust like the Jews did, either.
Further, when the Arabs moved out at the founding of Israel, it was not because Israel forced them out. The Arab governments had sworn war when Israel was founded and started a war that very day. It was the Arab countries that urged the Arabs we now call Palestinians to leave – to get out of the way while the Arab armies exterminated the Jews.
The crusades, inquisition and invasion of Iraq were not carried out by Jews against Arabs.
Bunya August 4th, 2014 at 13:26
“Arizona and it has never been their homeland or site of religious sites.”
I know that. I was trying to make a point about religious beliefs and regional takeover. I failed to think of a better analogy, but I was hoping you’d get my point.
“Iran never suffered a Holocaust like the Jews did, either.”
You’re right, Iran didn’t – but Persia was a target for the crusades.
“The crusades, inquisition and invasion of Iraq were not carried out by Jews against Arabs.”
Most Arabs are Muslim. Palestine was/is predominantly Muslim. The Muslims suffered great abuse during the crusades and the inquisition. Christians slaughtered Muslims in the name of their religion, and If you don’t think that centuries of oppression doesn’t get someone’s dander up, I beg to differ.
Bunya August 4th, 2014 at 13:01
“The path the Palestinians should be on is one of nonviolence.”
Of course it should, but the same can be said for the Israelis. I simply don’t believe Israel is innocent in this conflict.
“Taking on Israel is stupid.”
Maybe the Palestinians don’t think it’s “stupid”. Maybe they’re acting out of desperation. I don’t know, so I won’t speculate. And I can’t, in good conscience, defend Israel because I simply don’t think Israel has any good intentions in this conflict either. This is a show of power, and both sides are unwilling to budge.
burqa July 29th, 2014 at 20:38
OP: “Israel Knocks Out Gaza’s Power Plant Depriving Millions Of Electricity, Sewage, Water”
Well, yes. That’s the kid of thing that happens in a war.
More of the same will happen each time Hamas decides to start a war.
One of these days they will figure out that fighting a nation that is far more powerful is stupid.
One of these days they will figure out that nonviolent protest is the way to go.
But right now, the ninnies elected by the Palestinians are following a bizarre strategy that interprets defeat as being victory and death and suffering of their people as success.
The Palestinian people deserve better from their leaders.
They need new leaders who will not bring this kind of thing upon the Palestinian people.
I don’t know, maybe there aren’t any.
Bunya July 30th, 2014 at 14:08
Israel isn’t necessarily more powerful. They simply have the support of the US to supply them with state-of-the-art military equipment and that emboldens them.
burqa August 1st, 2014 at 13:41
Bunya: “Israel isn’t necessarily more powerful.”
Now you’re arguing just for the sake of arguing.
Bunya: “They simply have the support of the US to supply them with state-of-the-art military equipment and that emboldens them.”
A common misperception as to what makes a military powerful.
In 1982 the Israeli air force took on the Syrian air force which was equipped with Soviet fighters considered equivalent to the planes the Israelis deployed. Israel swept them from the skies with the final score being:
Israel – 86 Syrian fighters shot down.
Syria – 0 Israeli fighters shot down.
In the 1948 war, the surrounding Arab countries had the better equipment as well as superior manpower, yet the Israelis won. This is commonly seen in the history of warfare. Superior tactics, operations, strategy and training often are more important factors than hardware.
The current conflict was not caused by Israel having superior equipment, it was caused by Hamas deciding to start a war. Now Hamas is once again getting the Palestinians killed in large numbers because Hamas is so damned stupid they bring slingshots to gunfights.
One hopes the Palestinians will see that supporting terrorism and repeated war is not in their best interests and the way to go is the path of nonviolence.
Bunya August 1st, 2014 at 17:13
Think about this for a minute. What if Iran (for example) came to the US, claiming Arizona was built on Muslim holy land and forced all it’s residence to move? You’d see all hell break loose. And after the crusades, the inquisition and the Iraq fiasco, don’t you think the Muslims have had enough western arrogance? Now, Hamas may very well be using the Palestinian people (perhaps against their will) to support terrorism, but on the other hand, the Palestinians may feel they’re backed into a corner and think employing the help of Hamas is their only recourse.
I’m not picking sides, I’m just playing devil’s advocate because I really don’t have all the facts. Nobody does.
Also, I’ve read your history on Israeli victories. Don’t you think all those achievements may be lulling Netanyahu into a false sense of security? His luck will eventually run out and, if he keeps flexing his muscle, this whole ordeal could blow up in his face.
burqa August 1st, 2014 at 20:34
I’m not getting the Iranian invasion comparison. But that’s the kick of it – Hamas got elected (after Bush insisted they have scheduled elections when Fatah wanted to delay them because they were not ready).
The path the Palestinians should be on is one of nonviolence. Taking on Israel is stupid.
I don’t care much for Netanyahu, but Israelis across the political spectrum have rallied to him to a degree not seen in the last 2 major conflicts. I don’t think he has been lulled into a false sense of security. He is responding to real attacks and real threats from a group that is and has always been dedicated to wiping out Israel and establishing an Islamic state ruled under their version of sharia, which they then intend to export to the rest of the region. They have had no interest in establishing a functioning, peaceful government ready to join the community of nations.
Read Leavitt’s book. He quotes the Hamas charter and leaders extensively. Everything they do in the social and political sphere is to support those goals.
The victories I referred to were in response to your point about military hardware.
I’ll add another example. In Vietnam, the side with the more modern hardware lost. same with the American Revolution.
burqa August 1st, 2014 at 20:43
If the Iranians coming to Arizona is a comparison to the reestablishment of Israel, it does not apply. For one, there is no history of Iranians having a country in Arizona and it has never been their homeland or site of religious sites. Iran never suffered a Holocaust like the Jews did, either.
Further, when the Arabs moved out at the founding of Israel, it was not because Israel forced them out. The Arab governments had sworn war when Israel was founded and started a war that very day. It was the Arab countries that urged the Arabs we now call Palestinians to leave – to get out of the way while the Arab armies exterminated the Jews.
The crusades, inquisition and invasion of Iraq were not carried out by Jews against Arabs.
Bunya August 4th, 2014 at 13:26
“Arizona and it has never been their homeland or site of religious sites.”
I know that. I was trying to make a point about religious beliefs and regional takeover. I failed to think of a better analogy, but I was hoping you’d get my point.
“Iran never suffered a Holocaust like the Jews did, either.”
You’re right, Iran didn’t – but Persia was a target for the crusades.
“The crusades, inquisition and invasion of Iraq were not carried out by Jews against Arabs.”
Most Arabs are Muslim. Palestine was/is predominantly Muslim. The Muslims suffered great abuse during the crusades and the inquisition. Christians slaughtered Muslims in the name of their religion, and If you don’t think that centuries of oppression doesn’t get someone’s dander up, I beg to differ.
Bunya August 4th, 2014 at 13:01
“The path the Palestinians should be on is one of nonviolence.”
Of course it should, but the same can be said for the Israelis. I simply don’t believe Israel is innocent in this conflict.
“Taking on Israel is stupid.”
Maybe the Palestinians don’t think it’s “stupid”. Maybe they’re acting out of desperation. I don’t know, so I won’t speculate. And I can’t, in good conscience, defend Israel because I simply don’t think Israel has any good intentions in this conflict either. This is a show of power, and both sides are unwilling to budge.
greenfloyd July 30th, 2014 at 02:59
At this point it seems it will take a miracle to save Gaza. The awful truth is if the Palestinian people can not, or will not rid themselves of Hamas, Israel will continue to pound them. That’s why I am pushing for a US led evacuation.
uzza July 30th, 2014 at 10:51
It’s no good to offer an evacuation without saying what becomes of the evacuees. The Middle East is full of evacuees, many of them stuck in refugee camps for generations, where they are periodically massacred. People generally want to remain in their homes.
There are close to two million people in Gaza. Even if we evacuated all those who want to leave there would remain a large population.
Saving innnocent lives sounds like a good idea, until it forces you to decide who is innocent. Not so easy amidst the chaos of modern conflict, and likely impossible. After all, “they elected a terrorist government”, right? Osama used that excuse, as does Obama. Maybe it’s better to simply change your goal to “saving lives”.
ps. You don’t seriously buy that “tunnels” excuse do you? The Israeli govt. considers being non-Jew an act of aggression–they say so. Ignore what they say–go by what they do.
greenfloyd July 31st, 2014 at 00:58
To your first point: the “evcuees” live. Those who remain in Gaza will probably perish.
Saving lives is a good idea, at least we seem to agree on that much. When a disaster like fire or flood happens we order people out, invariably some remain behind, sometimes they make it, often they don’t. At this point I’d like to avoid getting into a political debate about who elected who. Although I would suggest a US led evacuation might change a few Palestinian and Israeli minds about what America actually stands for in this trouble world.
To your final point: In the context to a mass-evacuation the “tunnels” are irrelevant. I think your characterization of the “Israeli govt.” is incorrect. As far as I can tell, never been there, it seems Israeli society is very diverse and tolerant. I doubt I’ll “ignore” what the Israeli government says and I will continue to judge their actions against it. So far, over the last 3 weeks anyway, I find no reason to doubt their word, although I, like nearly everybody here, have grave concerns about their tactics.
Imagine the game-changing effect of removing non-combatants (with the understanding it was voluntary and temporary). If it was proposed by the US and the Israelis agreed, then Hamas gets to decide if it wants to risk America’s wrath if it does not stand-down and allow the evacuation to proceed unmolested. Sadly I doubt Hamas, with its leaders safe and comfortable in their Qatar hotel, will allow their stock of handy martyrs to simply walk away. It could get real nasty on the ground. If it did then we’d have no choice but to defend ourselves and the refugees, with appropriate force if need be. Then, what if America offered and no Palestinians showed-up? Well, no shame on us, we tried our best to save lives and make peace. “Blessed are the peacemakers…”
uzza July 31st, 2014 at 11:19
You seem to misread my point about elections. That was quoting words used by both sides to justify the position they’ve explicitly stated–that there are no non-combatants.
Not sure what you mean, that you have no reason to doubt their word. Their actions, bombing power plants and hospitals, do not align with the PR about destroying tunnels, (akin to Bush’s “protecting women” justification for Iraq). It does align with their stated goal of collective punishment for the Palestinians. If that’s what you meant I agree.
Also agree it would be a great gesture if the US offered refuge. It’s just that I doubt their capability to pull off such a reversal of US foreign policy. The virus of machismo infects both Israel and the US to a lethal degree.
True, such an evacuation is not in Hamas’s strategic interest. Like Hezbollah and Al Queda they only exist due to Israeli/US agression. Stop that, and their job becomes rebuilding their country. Extremist groups like theirs subsist on hate, not fixing potholes, and they get voted out in short order.
Nor would it serve the interests of the MIC that runs the US, for whom arms production and war is a cash cow.
The US gives $3.5 billion/year to these guys, but claim they can’t influence their behavior; when it comes to spying on citizens, they can read your license plate from outer space, and they can intercept missiles in midflight, but they are somehow unable to locate where a rocket was fired. Whether it’s the band-aid of evacuation or ending the whole thing, bottom line is, they don’t WANT to be peacemakers.
greenfloyd August 1st, 2014 at 01:23
It does not appear we can continue this discussion. You have made clear your very insulting opinion of all Americans as knuckle-dragging warmongers. I think even Uzza would agree, we should all try to avoid giving offense. I’m not suggesting honesty should give-way or that legitimate issues be ignored. I am suggesting you paint with too wide a brush.
Meanwhile, a new 72 hour cease-fire has just come into effect in Gaza, thanks at least in part to the efforts of American diplomacy.
Peace be with you.
burqa August 1st, 2014 at 21:13
I like your style, greenfloyd. You make very good points, too.
burqa August 1st, 2014 at 21:09
uzza: “an evacuation is not in Hamas’s strategic interest. Like Hezbollah and Al Queda they only exist due to Israeli/US agression. Stop that, and their job becomes rebuilding their country.”
Wrong on the history of the founding of Hamas, wrong on what they’d do if they were left alone. Not if we are to believe their leaders said what they meant in their charter and many statements over the years rejecting any peaceful coexistence.
All along, Hamas has insisted all their activities in every sphere are to further their goals of destroying Israel and establishing an Islamic state that would employ their version of sharia. They then would export Islamic revolution to the rest of the region from their base.
Al Qaeda and Hamas exist because they were formed by people bent on exterminating civilians to further their political goals. neither ever considered, much less tried nonviolent protest of any sort. Their leaders are all about slaughtering civilians in as large a number as they can manage.
Neither ever took anything like the measures Israel and the US have to reduce or avoid civilian casualties.
uzza August 2nd, 2014 at 09:15
It should be embarassing to brag on avoiding civilian casualties when the ratio is 24 dead civilians for each dead soldier. Aside from that, nothing you say contradicts what I said.
Of course they exist to further their political goals. The strategy they use is classic and your parallel with Vietnam is a good one. It took over a hundred years, but the Viet Cong won using those same methods–morally bankrupt as they may be. Once the threat was gone they turned to fixing potholes, inevitably, and VN is now thriving and no threat to anyone. US carpet bombing only delayed the process.
A better parallel is the Stanford Prison Experiment. To effect meaningful change it’s pointless to moralize. Since the jailers hold all the power it’s futile and counterproductive to put the burden on the prisoners. With power comes responsibility: Taking the easy way of dehumanizing your opponent to justify resorting to brute force won’t solve the problems.
burqa August 1st, 2014 at 20:59
The heart behind an evacuation is nice, but it’s just not feasible. Somehow, some way they Palestinians need to get rid of Hamas. The Israelis seem to be getting pretty good intelligence from informers who feel the same way.
Hamas will only lead them to more and more destruction.
It’s just plain stupid to take on the Israelis and to box yourself in with an ideology that only seeks more war and the imposition of Hamas’ version of sharia in an Islamic state. The far more secular Fatah would have a better chance if they were in charge. But Hamas got elected.
That’s the kicker – they got elected.
greenfloyd August 1st, 2014 at 23:41
Thank you, although I respectfully disagree about feasibility. We (America) have all the means at our disposal to effect an evacuation of Gaza. I also believe we in particular, and humanity in general, have a moral responsibility to “make it so!”
Hamas appears to have adopted a “win by loosing” strategy. Their aim is to make Israel and America look bad. They can only succeed at that with an ample supply of martyrs, willing or not, to hide behind. An evacuation would deprive them of their most effective weapon. And of course save thousands of lives.
floyd[@]greenfloyd.org July 30th, 2014 at 02:59
At this point it seems it will take a miracle to save Gaza. The awful truth is if the Palestinian people can not, or will not rid themselves of Hamas, Israel will continue to pound them. That’s why I am pushing for a US led evacuation.
uzza July 30th, 2014 at 10:51
It’s no good to offer an evacuation without saying what becomes of the evacuees. The Middle East is full of evacuees, many of them stuck in refugee camps for generations, where they are periodically massacred. People generally want to remain in their homes.
There are close to two million people in Gaza. Even if we evacuated all those who want to leave there would remain a large population.
Saving innnocent lives sounds like a good idea, until it forces you to decide who is innocent. Not so easy amidst the chaos of modern conflict, and likely impossible. After all, “they elected a terrorist government”, right? Osama used that excuse, as does Obama. Maybe it’s better to simply change your goal to “saving lives”.
ps. You don’t seriously buy that “tunnels” excuse do you? The Israeli govt. considers being non-Jew an act of aggression–they say so. Ignore what they say–go by what they do.
floyd[@]greenfloyd.org July 31st, 2014 at 00:58
To your first point: the “evcuees” live. Those who remain in Gaza will probably perish.
Saving lives is a good idea, at least we seem to agree on that much. When a disaster like fire or flood happens we order people out, invariably some remain behind, sometimes they make it, often they don’t. At this point I’d like to avoid getting into a political debate about who elected who. Although I would suggest a US led evacuation might change a few Palestinian and Israeli minds about what America actually stands for in this trouble world.
To your final point: In the context to a mass-evacuation the “tunnels” are irrelevant. I think your characterization of the “Israeli govt.” is incorrect. As far as I can tell, never been there, it seems Israeli society is very diverse and tolerant. I doubt I’ll “ignore” what the Israeli government says and I will continue to judge their actions against it. So far, over the last 3 weeks anyway, I find no reason to doubt their word, although I, like nearly everybody here, have grave concerns about their tactics.
Imagine the game-changing effect of removing non-combatants (with the understanding it was voluntary and temporary). If it was proposed by the US and the Israelis agreed, then Hamas gets to decide if it wants to risk America’s wrath if it does not stand-down and allow the evacuation to proceed unmolested. Sadly I doubt Hamas, with its leaders safe and comfortable in their Qatar hotel, will allow their stock of handy martyrs to simply walk away. It could get real nasty on the ground. If it did then we’d have no choice but to defend ourselves and the refugees, with appropriate force if need be. Then, what if America offered and no Palestinians showed-up? Well, no shame on us, we tried our best to save lives and make peace. “Blessed are the peacemakers…”
uzza July 31st, 2014 at 11:19
You seem to misread my point about elections. That was quoting words used by both sides to justify the position they’ve explicitly stated–that there are no non-combatants.
Not sure what you mean, that you have no reason to doubt their word. Their actions, bombing power plants and hospitals, do not align with the PR about destroying tunnels, (akin to Bush’s “protecting women” justification for Iraq). It does align with their stated goal of collective punishment for the Palestinians. If that’s what you meant I agree.
Also agree it would be a great gesture if the US offered refuge. It’s just that I doubt their capability to pull off such a reversal of US foreign policy. The virus of machismo infects both Israel and the US to a lethal degree.
True, such an evacuation is not in Hamas’s strategic interest. Like Hezbollah and Al Queda they only exist due to Israeli/US agression. Stop that, and their job becomes rebuilding their country. Extremist groups like theirs subsist on hate, not fixing potholes, and they get voted out in short order.
Nor would it serve the interests of the MIC that runs the US, for whom arms production and war is a cash cow.
The US gives $3.5 billion/year to these guys, but claim they can’t influence their behavior; when it comes to spying on citizens, they can read your license plate from outer space, and they can intercept missiles in midflight, but they are somehow unable to locate where a rocket was fired. Whether it’s the band-aid of evacuation or ending the whole thing, bottom line is, they don’t WANT to be peacemakers.
floyd[@]greenfloyd.org August 1st, 2014 at 01:23
It does not appear we can continue this discussion. You have made clear your very insulting opinion of all Americans as knuckle-dragging warmongers. I think even Uzza would agree, we should all try to avoid giving offense. I’m not suggesting honesty should give-way or that legitimate issues be ignored. I am suggesting you paint with too wide a brush.
Meanwhile, a new 72 hour cease-fire has just come into effect in Gaza, thanks at least in part to the efforts of American diplomacy.
Peace be with you.
burqa August 1st, 2014 at 21:13
I like your style, greenfloyd. You make very good points, too.
burqa August 1st, 2014 at 21:09
uzza: “an evacuation is not in Hamas’s strategic interest. Like Hezbollah and Al Queda they only exist due to Israeli/US agression. Stop that, and their job becomes rebuilding their country.”
Wrong on the history of the founding of Hamas, wrong on what they’d do if they were left alone. Not if we are to believe their leaders said what they meant in their charter and in many statements over the years rejecting any peaceful coexistence. They have consistently vowed war until Israel is liquidated. Go ahead, find me Hamas leaders who clearly expressed a desire to coexist in peace. I’ll save you the effort. There aren’t any.
All along, Hamas has insisted all their activities in every sphere are to further their goals of destroying Israel and establishing an Islamic state that would employ their version of sharia. They then would export Islamic revolution to the rest of the region from their base.
Al Qaeda and Hamas exist because they were formed by people bent on exterminating civilians to further their political goals. neither ever considered, much less tried nonviolent protest of any sort. Their leaders are all about slaughtering civilians in as large a number as they can manage.
Neither ever took anything like the measures Israel and the US have to reduce or avoid civilian casualties.
uzza August 2nd, 2014 at 09:15
It should be embarassing to brag on avoiding civilian casualties when the ratio is 24 dead civilians for each dead soldier. Aside from that, nothing you say contradicts what I said.
Of course they exist to further their political goals. The strategy they use is classic and your parallel with Vietnam is a good one. It took over a hundred years, but the Viet Cong won using those same methods–morally bankrupt as they may be. Once the threat was gone they turned to fixing potholes, inevitably, and VN is now thriving and no threat to anyone. US carpet bombing only delayed the process.
A better parallel is the Stanford Prison Experiment. To effect meaningful change it’s pointless to moralize. Since the jailers hold all the power it’s futile and counterproductive to put the burden on the prisoners. With power comes responsibility: Taking the easy way of dehumanizing your opponent to justify resorting to brute force won’t solve the problems.
burqa August 1st, 2014 at 20:59
The heart behind an evacuation is nice, but it’s just not feasible. Somehow, some way they Palestinians need to get rid of Hamas. The Israelis seem to be getting pretty good intelligence from informers who feel the same way.
Hamas will only lead them to more and more destruction.
It’s just plain stupid to take on the Israelis and to box yourself in with an ideology that only seeks more war and the imposition of Hamas’ version of sharia in an Islamic state. The far more secular Fatah would have a better chance if they were in charge. But Hamas got elected.
That’s the kicker – they got elected.
floyd[@]greenfloyd.org August 1st, 2014 at 23:41
Thank you, although I respectfully disagree about feasibility. We (America) have all the means at our disposal to effect an evacuation of Gaza. I also believe we in particular, and humanity in general, have a moral responsibility to “make it so!”
Hamas appears to have adopted a “win by loosing” strategy. Their aim is to make Israel and America look bad. They can only succeed at that with an ample supply of martyrs, willing or not, to hide behind. An evacuation would deprive them of their most effective weapon. And of course save thousands of lives.
Bunya July 30th, 2014 at 14:14
Regarding your “anti-semite” comment, I refer you to Robert Snyders post below for the definition.
Spirit of America July 30th, 2014 at 14:21
I did, and replied.
M D Reese July 30th, 2014 at 15:53
Since when are Jews the only Semites? Being critical of Israel or Judaism is not being anti-Semitic. And as for hamas wanting to kill every Jew–what exactly is Israel doing to Palestinians in Gaza? Telling them to evacuate is a sick joke.