Conservative Christian: Stopping Same-Sex Marriage Is ‘Worth Dying For’ (Video)

Posted by | July 19, 2014 09:43 | Filed under: News Behaving Badly Politics Top Stories


A Monroe County judge in Florida ruled on Thursday that two Key West bartenders and other gay couples must be allowed to marry. Of course, this means the world is coming to an end.

Monroe County Chief Circuit Judge Luis M. Garcia ordered the county clerk’s office to begin issuing marriage licenses to gay couples as early as Tuesday morning. In doing so, he sided with Aaron Huntsman and William Lee Jones, who argued that the ban on same-sex marriage in the Florida Constitution violated their rights under the U.S. Constitution, The Washington Post reported.

“The court is aware that the majority of voters oppose same-sex marriage, but it is our country’s proud history to protect the rights of the individual, the rights of the unpopular and rights of the powerless, even at the cost of offending the majority,” Garcia wrote in his decision.

Garcia’s order would allow same-sex couples from around the state to go to the Keys to get married.

Florida Attorney General Pam Bondi is having none of that. Bondi quickly filed a notice of appeal on Thursday which put Garcia’s ruling on hold.

“With many similar cases pending throughout the entire country, finality on this constitutional issue must come from the U.S. Supreme Court,” Bondi said in a statement.

Conservative Christian groups  vowed to protect Florida’s definition of marriage as being between one man and one woman.

Huntsman and Jones, who met at a gay pride celebration and have been a couple for 11 years, said,  “I can’t believe it finally happened,” said Jones. “Love is love. It doesn’t matter if it’s a guy and woman or two women or two men. Love is love.”

It’s worth dying for:

Conservatives say they will do everything they can to make sure the answer remains a resounding “no,” and blasted Garcia’s ruling Thursday as another overreach by an activist judge.

Anthony Verdugo, executive director of the Christian Family Coalition of Florida, called the ruling a “corrupt decision,” and a “judicial lynching of nearly 8 million Florida voters” who voted to ban same-sex marriage in 2008.

John Stemberger, who led that 2008 campaign, said he would keep fighting.

“This is an issue worth dying for,” said Stemberger, president and general counsel of the Florida Family Policy Council in Orlando. “Every domestic partnership, every single civil union, every couple that cohabitates, these arrangements dilute and devalue marriage.”

Stemberger said he wasn’t “daunted” by Garcia’s ruling, nor was he surprised.

“The court was very hostile to our position,” he said. “This is a very sad day for Floridians. This is an entirely illegitimate process. The judge had no legal authority in this decision.”

(my bold)

Watch:

A Christian minister recently knelt down at  a strip-mall parking lot, outside a dollar store, beauty salon and pharmacy, then doused himself with gasoline and lit himself on fire. He spent his life preaching against racism and homophobia while promoting social justice.

What I’m saying is, no one is stopping Stemberger from making a dramatic statement.

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194 responses to Conservative Christian: Stopping Same-Sex Marriage Is ‘Worth Dying For’ (Video)

  1. fahvel July 19th, 2014 at 12:25

    well then sternburger (between a warm bu) drop dead!!!!!

  2. M D Reese July 19th, 2014 at 12:39

    Let’s take a vote to deny these homophobes the right to practice their religion. Maybe they’ll eventually understand that the Bill of Rights is there to protect the minority from the majority. You can’t deny American citizens their civil rights by voting them away.

    • neworleans878 July 19th, 2014 at 12:45

      These idiots don’t understand the 1st Amendment. Freedom of religion also means freedom from religion.

      • M D Reese July 19th, 2014 at 12:51

        Exactly. I’m really sick of the arguments over opening government assemblies with a “non-denominational prayer”. EXCUSE ME, there is no such thing. They’re like gun fetishists who can’t go anywhere without packing their guns.

        • Yeah way July 19th, 2014 at 13:06

          …or like gunowner-haters that have to twist everything around to meet their own narrow worldview.

          You have it backwards: marriage equality is a freedom issue, as is firearms ownership.

          If you desire to curtail EITHER, you are on the wrong side of history. Period.

          Both rights come with responsibilities. ..gun owners must be sure and responsible owners. Those entering a marriage must not use coercion, or omit informed consent.

          To stand in the way of either minority group, is an affront to freedom.

          Stop it.

          • M D Reese July 19th, 2014 at 14:54

            Yeah right, yahway–
            Equal treatment under the law means just that. You don’t get to vote on other citizens’ civil rights. So Stop It.

            • burqa July 19th, 2014 at 18:08

              Indeed.
              Those who oppose bigotry expressed against one group but then practice it themselves against another have no standing as long as they are inconsistent and seek to make excuses for their own hatred.

              • Clyde Wolf July 21st, 2014 at 18:39

                Then I’m a proud bigot because if you don’t stand for something you will fall for anything. The real problem, I believe, and from reading your posts and making little comments you should think about, is that the government is overstepping their bounds by miles. They create all this confusion and illusion so as to keep small minds busy yapping while they steadily chip away at our rights and freedoms. This should be apparent by now to EVERY AMERICAN!. You think gays are getting their way now, but in the end, believe me, it is not going to be that simple or that free. Every move a politician makes is calculated and recalculated to serve themselves and their “higher” agenda. You will see, mark my words, there are terrible times coming and it isn’t because of Christians, Jews, Homophobes or anything else..The source of this terror is Green and it demands is the blood of many…

          • Dave Lanson July 19th, 2014 at 16:43

            But being gay married in public doesn’t really scare or intimidate innocent people the way inbred, mentally impaired, mullet-wearing morons do when they feel the need to carry their phallic substitutes through stores and restaurants.

            • Clyde Wolf July 21st, 2014 at 18:30

              Until you get mugged, that is. Then guns seem very fashion friendly Dave.

    • burqa July 19th, 2014 at 18:04

      The Bill of Rights, as well as amendments recognizing equality for women, African Americans and other minorities were authored by Christians. The country was founded by Christians, hundreds of thousands of whom have died establishing and protecting this nation. Spend some time in one of our national cemeteries where they are buried. You’ll see acres of headstones with crosses on them. Many who struggle for equal rights for gays happen to be Christians.

      If you find bigotry to be an ugly thing that prevents progress and harms the oppressed, then don’t practice it yourself. Because when you do, it makes you just as bad as they are.

      Me, I try to be consistent. I oppose bigotry when it is directed against gays. I oppose it when it is directed against Christians. I oppose it when it is directed against Muslims, Jews, atheists, women, immigrants or others. That is because I do not pretend to be against bigotry in order to cloak my own hatred of whatever group the crowd seems to think is ok to hate. This ruffles the feathers of the hypocrites and that’s just too bad.

      • AtheistsAreUs July 20th, 2014 at 13:36

        Actually Burqu, this nation was not founded on Christianity, it was founded on concepts and ideas/ideals established by authors of the enlightened age: John Locke, Thomas Paine, etc….Many of our forefather were christians, but many were also deist, and a few freethinkers. The National Cemetery IS covered in acres and acres of crosses (which is specifically a symbol of Christianity) which is bias in favor of Christians, but not all buried there were Christian. Its only been in recent years that non-believers n the military were allowed to list “atheist” as their religious status. For many years it was not available to military members. My point is merely that “acre and acres of crosses in the national cemetery” is not an indication that this country is founded in Christianity, merely an indication that those in power dominate with their Christian views by creating a very strong portrait of a unified christian nation, when in fact many soldiers buried there should by right have had no cross at all, perhaps a menorah. or a five pointed star, or maybe a nine pointed star, or a sliver moon with a star, or a Swastika, or a hand with a circle. Each person who had different beliefs now gets his own stone with his or her own symbol, instead of a cross. But for a time, they were all crosses.

        • burqa July 21st, 2014 at 18:44

          I didn’t say it was “founded on Christianity.” That was something you invented out of thin air.
          Of the Founding Fathers, I know Paine was an atheist, but am not aware of any others.
          I do not think you know what deism was.
          I happen to live where many of our Founding Fathers such as Washington, Jefferson, Mason, Madison, Monroe, Pendleton, and Lee lived. They were all Christians. Many of the churches they attended still stand and you can visit them. I can provide you links to them if you want. Some agreed in various degrees with deism, which was just a subset of thinking within Christianity. I am not aware of any deist churches. The chaps I listed, above, were pretty much all Episcopalians.
          I am not aware of anyone buried in a national cemetery who was, say, Jewish, being forced to have a headstone with a cross on it. Since I visit national cemeteries at Quantico and Arlington several times a year, I am well aware of the policy of other symbols on headstones. Some buried before this policy was enacted have no symbol at all on there.
          After the policy was changed, the numbers with crosses on their headstones still overwhelmingly outnumber other symbols or lack thereof. I know, because I have visited new sections of these 2 cemeteries many times.

          • fllwyrrlgin July 22nd, 2014 at 11:13

            They were not Christians.

            “The Christian right is trying to rewrite the history of
            the United States as part of its campaign to force its religion on others. They
            try to depict the founding fathers as pious Christians who wanted the United
            States to be a Christian nation, with laws that favored Christians and
            Christianity.

            This is patently untrue. The early presidents and patriots were
            generally Deists or Unitarians, believing in some form of impersonal Providence
            but rejecting the divinity of Jesus and the absurdities of the Old and New
            testaments.

            Thomas Paine was a pamphleteer whose manifestos
            encouraged the faltering spirits of the country and aided materially in winning
            the war of Independence:

            I do not believe in the
            creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church,
            by the Turkish church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that I know
            of…Each of those churches accuse the other of unbelief; and for my own part,
            I disbelieve them all.”

            From:

            The Age of Reason
            by Thomas Paine, pp. 8,9 (Republished 1984, Prometheus Books, Buffalo, NY)

            George Washington, the first president of the
            United States, never declared himself a Christian according to contemporary
            reports or in any of his voluminous correspondence. Washington Championed the
            cause of freedom from religious intolerance and compulsion. When John Murray (a
            universalist who denied the existence of hell) was invited to become an army
            chaplain, the other chaplains petitioned Washington for his dismissal. Instead,
            Washington gave him the appointment. On his deathbed, Washinton uttered no
            words of a religious nature and did not call for a clergyman to be in
            attendance.

            From:

            George Washington and
            Religion by Paul F. Boller Jr., pp. 16, 87, 88, 108, 113, 121, 127
            (1963, Southern Methodist University Press, Dallas, TX)

            John Adams, the country’s second president, was drawn
            to the study of law but faced pressure from his father to become a clergyman.
            He wrote that he found among the lawyers ‘noble and gallant achievments”
            but among the clergy, the “pretended sanctity of some absolute
            dunces”. Late in life he wrote: “Twenty times in the course of my
            late reading, have I been upon the point of breaking out, “This would be
            the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it!”

            It was during Adam’s administration that the Senate ratified the
            Treaty of Peace and Friendship, which states in Article XI that “the
            government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the
            Christian Religion.”

            From:

            The Character of John Adams
            by Peter Shaw, pp. 17 (1976, North Carolina Press, Chapel Hill, NC) Quoting a
            letter by JA to Charles Cushing Oct 19, 1756, and John Adams, A Biography in his Own Words,
            edited by James Peabody, p. 403 (1973, Newsweek, New York NY) Quoting letter by
            JA to Jefferson April 19, 1817, and in reference to the treaty, Thomas Jefferson, Passionate Pilgrim
            by Alf Mapp Jr., pp. 311 (1991, Madison Books, Lanham, MD) quoting letter by TJ
            to Dr. Benjamin Waterhouse, June, 1814.

            Thomas Jefferson, third president and author of
            the Declaration of Independence, said:”I trust that there is not a young
            man now living in the United States who will not die a Unitarian.” He
            referred to the Revelation of St. John as “the ravings of a maniac”
            and wrote:

            The Christian priesthood,
            finding the doctrines of Christ levelled to every understanding and too plain
            to need explanation, saw, in the mysticisms of Plato, materials with which they
            might build up an artificial system which might, from its indistinctness, admit
            everlasting controversy, give employment for their order, and introduce it to
            profit, power, and pre-eminence. The doctrines which flowed from the lips of
            Jesus himself are within the comprehension of a child; but thousands of volumes
            have not yet explained the Platonisms engrafted on them: and for this obvious
            reason that nonsense can never be explained.”

            From:

            Thomas Jefferson, an
            Intimate History by Fawn M. Brodie, p. 453 (1974, W.W) Norton and
            Co. Inc. New York, NY) Quoting a letter by TJ to Alexander Smyth Jan 17, 1825,
            and Thomas Jefferson,
            Passionate Pilgrim by Alf Mapp Jr., pp. 246 (1991, Madison Books,
            Lanham, MD) quoting letter by TJ to John Adams, July 5, 1814.

            James Madison, fourth president and father
            of the Constitution, was not religious in any conventional sense. “Religious
            bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble
            enterprise.”

            “During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of
            Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less in all
            places, pride and indolence in the Clergy, ignorance and servility in the
            laity, in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution.”

            From:

            The Madisons by
            Virginia Moore, P. 43 (1979, McGraw-Hill Co. New York, NY) quoting a letter by
            JM to William Bradford April 1, 1774, and James
            Madison, A Biography in his Own Words, edited by Joseph Gardner, p.
            93, (1974, Newsweek, New York, NY) Quoting Memorial and Remonstrance against
            Religious Assessments by JM, June 1785.

            Ethan Allen, whose capture of Fort Ticonderoga while
            commanding the Green Mountain Boys helped inspire Congress and the country to
            pursue the War of Independence, said, “That Jesus Christ was not God is
            evidence from his own words.” In the same book, Allen noted that he was
            generally “denominated a Deist, the reality of which I never disputed,
            being conscious that I am no Christian.” When Allen married Fanny
            Buchanan, he stopped his own wedding ceremony when the judge asked him if he
            promised “to live with Fanny Buchanan agreeable to the laws of God.”
            Allen refused to answer until the judge agreed that the God referred to was the
            God of Nature, and the laws those “written in the great book of nature.”

            • burqa July 23rd, 2014 at 14:17

              I have no interest in establishing any sort of theocracy, I prefer our secular government.

              I am interested in getting history accurate. These days I am involved in historical research in the colonial and early days of the Republic. I do this research in a place packed with history books of the period, many rare or very old volumes. There are entire encyclopedia-sized collections of the writings of Washington, Jefferson, Pendleton and others.

              When we look at their words and activities we see they were quite devout. Their letters are packed with appeals and references to the Almighty and they went to great efforts and expense to attend and serve as vestrymen in churches of the day.

              fllwyrrign: “This is patently untrue. The early presidents and patriots were generally Deists or Unitarians,”

              There was no such thing as a Deist church or sect one could join. In all such movements there are currents of thought that ebb and flow. Just as over time we can trace how major positions of political parties change and evolve over time, so it is within Christianity.

              As I said, I live and walk the streets many of these Founding Fathers walked and have attended churches they attended. here are some you can visit today:

              St John’s Episcopal Church in Richmond, site of Patrick
              Henry’s “Give me liberty or give me death” speech,liberty or give me death”ry’
              http://historicstjohnschurch.org/

              Here is one I enjoy visiting from time to time. Services are
              still held. George Washington and George Mason were active members of Pohick
              Church:
              http://www.pohick.org/history.html

              Here, for example is the Vestry Book for Pohick Church:
              http://www.pohick.org/vestrybook.html

              Christ Church in Alexandria is another that was
              attended by Founding Fathers:
              http://www.historicchristchurch.org/about-us/

              Here is another church they often visited, the lovely Aquia
              Episcopal Church right off Rt 1:
              http://www.aquiachurch.com/history.html

              In Fredericksburg, I would suggest visiting St. Georges
              Episcopal and Fredericksburg Presbyterian on Princess Anne Street a short stroll away.
              http://www.stgeorgesepiscopal.net/

              George Washington was also a vestryman at The Falls Church,
              designed by James Wren:

              http://www.hmdb.org/marker.asp?marker=2870

            • burqa July 23rd, 2014 at 14:47

              The fact that 21st century churches do not preach identical messages as those in the 18th century is hardly surprising. Any large group that continues for hundreds of years will have various currents of thought or changes in what is stressed or given priority to. We can see this in politics over many years, as we trace conservatism, for example, going from standing for isolationism to Wilsonian make-the-world-safe-for-democracy interventionism. In their time, they are still conservative when taken in context of their time.
              Your mistake is to try to apply standards today on a period 250 years old, believing that any variance proves a distinction that is just not there.
              The reason why there are thousands of different Christian sects in America is over time new or different strains of thought emerge and things are given varying emphasis or handled differently for a different audience. A new strain emerges and pretty soon you have a new sect. They are all Christian.
              The Deists were Christians just at those who believed Liberation Theology that emerged in parts of Catholicism were, or are just as much members of the Catholic church and Christianity than those who do not hold to Liberation Theology.
              Deism was merely a current that flowed within a much larger field of thought and was believed in various degrees by various people at various times. over time people ebbed and flowed individually and as a group to how much Deist thought they accepted.

            • burqa July 23rd, 2014 at 15:22

              Thomas Paine, yeah, about the only atheist of the bunch. He said he would live to see the day when no one read a Bible. Obviously he was wrong on the track spiritual thought would take in America.

              Madison? I have been in churches he attended. I believe a little research will show him to be a vestryman in one or more churches. That he would have said something about religious assessments in 1785 in understandable, considering that this was in the middle of a great change that came with Jefferson’s Virginia Statute of Religious Freedom, which others, like Edmund Pendleton had a lot to do with as they hammered it out in Fredericksburg years after it was begun.

              Ethan Allen – I don’t think you understand his role. He was an important figure at the time, but was more interested in his own local deal and stood apart and sort of to one side of those leading the revolution.
              However, his statement that Jesus is not God is a belief I share with him and I am a Christian. Lots of us do not think so and many do not believe in the Trinity. Despite differences with other sects, they are still Christians.

              George Washington – as a young man at Ferry Farms he used to go into Falmouth to attend a Christian church – I think it was the one that became Union Baptist. I gave you links to 3 Episcopalian churches he was a member or vestryman in. It was no small thing to saddle up and ride from Mount Vernon to Falls Church, for example, but he made the trip and to the others.
              This area is peppered with old, colonial-era churches they would attend when on the road, such as the one in Aquia Harbor I linked to.

              The Lees had a chapel in Stratford Hall. A lot of those old houses did, and you can see them today.

          • Clyde Wolf July 25th, 2014 at 19:58

            Paine was not an Atheist. He was a Deist. There’s a huge difference..

            • burqa July 27th, 2014 at 00:00

              I agree that there is a huge difference between Deists and atheists. I don’t recall reading Paine was a Deist. But I have read where he was an atheist. I rarely go to the internet for history, preferring to read good history books.

              There’s not a lot of sites I’d regard as reliable. Often I have no idea who the authors are.

              One I think is good is American Heritage, which began as a magazine containing essays by eminent historians on various topics. I went there, and right off the bat found an article that says he was a Deist. Nice one, Mr. Wolf!

              http://www.americanheritage.com/content/have-you-seen-founding-father

            • burqa July 29th, 2014 at 17:38

              Mr. Wolfe, I have found more references to Paine being a deist and one that seemed to say he was at one time a Quaker. Thank you for the correction.
              It’s kinda neat to be corrected thusly and to have the correction strengthen one’s argument!

              I would also add that while Paine was an influential figure of the time, I wouldn’t regard him as a Founding Father because he didn’t have anything to do with the actual spadework of fighting the Revolution or establishing the country.

      • Clyde Wolf July 21st, 2014 at 18:27

        An activist who is inactive, seems a little hypocritical maybe…

  3. M D Reese July 19th, 2014 at 12:39

    Let’s take a vote to deny these homophobes the right to practice their religion. Maybe they’ll eventually understand that the Bill of Rights is there to protect the minority from the majority. You can’t deny American citizens their civil rights by voting them away.

    • nola878 July 19th, 2014 at 12:45

      These idiots don’t understand the 1st Amendment. Freedom of religion also means freedom from religion.

      • M D Reese July 19th, 2014 at 12:51

        Exactly. I’m really sick of the arguments over opening government assemblies with a “non-denominational prayer”. EXCUSE ME, there is no such thing. They’re like gun fetishists who can’t go anywhere without packing their guns.

        • Yeah way July 19th, 2014 at 13:06

          …or like gunowner-haters that have to twist everything around to meet their own narrow worldview.

          You have it backwards: marriage equality is a freedom issue, as is firearms ownership.

          If you desire to curtail EITHER, you are on the wrong side of history. Period.

          Both rights come with responsibilities. ..gun owners must be sure and responsible owners. Those entering a marriage must not use coercion, or omit informed consent.

          To stand in the way of either minority group, is an affront to freedom.

          Stop it.

          • M D Reese July 19th, 2014 at 14:54

            Yeah right, yahway–
            Equal treatment under the law means just that. You don’t get to vote on other citizens’ civil rights. So Stop It.

            • burqa July 19th, 2014 at 18:08

              Indeed.
              Those who oppose bigotry expressed against one group but then practice it themselves against another have no standing as long as they are inconsistent and seek to make excuses for their own hatred.

          • Dave Lanson July 19th, 2014 at 16:43

            But being gay married in public doesn’t really scare or intimidate innocent people the way inbred, mentally impaired, mullet-wearing morons do when they feel the need to carry their phallic substitutes through stores and restaurants.

    • burqa July 19th, 2014 at 18:04

      The Bill of Rights, as well as amendments recognizing equality for women, African Americans and other minorities were authored by Christians. The country was founded by Christians, hundreds of thousands of whom have died establishing and protecting this nation. Spend some time in one of our national cemeteries where they are buried. You’ll see acres of headstones with crosses on them. Many who struggle for equal rights for gays happen to be Christians.

      If you find bigotry to be an ugly thing that prevents progress and harms the oppressed, then don’t practice it yourself. Because when you do, it makes you just as bad as they are.

      Me, I try to be consistent. I oppose bigotry when it is directed against gays. I oppose it when it is directed against Christians. I oppose it when it is directed against Muslims, Jews, atheists, women, immigrants or others. That is because I do not pretend to be against bigotry in order to cloak my own hatred of whatever group the crowd seems to think is ok to hate. This ruffles the feathers of the hypocrites and that’s just too bad.

      • AtheistsAreUs July 20th, 2014 at 13:36

        Actually Burqu, this nation was not founded on Christianity, it was founded on concepts and ideas/ideals established by authors of the enlightened age: John Locke, Thomas Paine, etc….Many of our forefather were christians, but many were also deist, and a few freethinkers. The National Cemetery IS covered in acres and acres of crosses (which is specifically a symbol of Christianity) which is bias in favor of Christians, but not all buried there were Christian. Its only been in recent years that non-believers n the military were allowed to list “atheist” as their religious status. For many years it was not available to military members. My point is merely that “acre and acres of crosses in the national cemetery” is not an indication that this country is founded in Christianity, merely an indication that those in power dominate with their Christian views by creating a very strong portrait of a unified christian nation, when in fact many soldiers buried there should by right have had no cross at all, perhaps a menorah. or a five pointed star, or maybe a nine pointed star, or a sliver moon with a star, or a Swastika, or a hand with a circle. Each person who had different beliefs now gets his own stone with his or her own symbol, instead of a cross. But for a time, they were all crosses.

        • burqa July 21st, 2014 at 18:44

          I didn’t say it was “founded on Christianity.” That was something you invented out of thin air.
          Of the Founding Fathers, I know Paine was an atheist, but am not aware of any others.
          I do not think you know what deism was.
          I happen to live where many of our Founding Fathers such as Washington, Jefferson, Mason, Madison, Monroe, Pendleton, and Lee lived. They were all Christians. Many of the churches they attended still stand and you can visit them. I can provide you links to them if you want. Some agreed in various degrees with deism, which was just a subset of thinking within Christianity. I am not aware of any deist churches. The chaps I listed, above, were pretty much all Episcopalians.
          I am not aware of anyone buried in a national cemetery who was, say, Jewish, being forced to have a headstone with a cross on it. Since I visit national cemeteries at Quantico and Arlington several times a year, I am well aware of the policy of other symbols on headstones. Some buried before this policy was enacted have no symbol at all on there.
          After the policy was changed, the numbers with crosses on their headstones still overwhelmingly outnumber other symbols or lack thereof. I know, because I have visited new sections of these 2 cemeteries many times.

          • fllwyrrlgin July 22nd, 2014 at 11:13

            They were not Christians.

            “The Christian right is trying to rewrite the history of
            the United States as part of its campaign to force its religion on others. They
            try to depict the founding fathers as pious Christians who wanted the United
            States to be a Christian nation, with laws that favored Christians and
            Christianity.

            This is patently untrue. The early presidents and patriots were
            generally Deists or Unitarians, believing in some form of impersonal Providence
            but rejecting the divinity of Jesus and the absurdities of the Old and New
            testaments.

            Thomas Paine was a pamphleteer whose manifestos
            encouraged the faltering spirits of the country and aided materially in winning
            the war of Independence:

            I do not believe in the
            creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church,
            by the Turkish church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that I know
            of…Each of those churches accuse the other of unbelief; and for my own part,
            I disbelieve them all.”

            From:

            The Age of Reason
            by Thomas Paine, pp. 8,9 (Republished 1984, Prometheus Books, Buffalo, NY)

            George Washington, the first president of the
            United States, never declared himself a Christian according to contemporary
            reports or in any of his voluminous correspondence. Washington Championed the
            cause of freedom from religious intolerance and compulsion. When John Murray (a
            universalist who denied the existence of hell) was invited to become an army
            chaplain, the other chaplains petitioned Washington for his dismissal. Instead,
            Washington gave him the appointment. On his deathbed, Washinton uttered no
            words of a religious nature and did not call for a clergyman to be in
            attendance.

            From:

            George Washington and
            Religion by Paul F. Boller Jr., pp. 16, 87, 88, 108, 113, 121, 127
            (1963, Southern Methodist University Press, Dallas, TX)

            John Adams, the country’s second president, was drawn
            to the study of law but faced pressure from his father to become a clergyman.
            He wrote that he found among the lawyers ‘noble and gallant achievments”
            but among the clergy, the “pretended sanctity of some absolute
            dunces”. Late in life he wrote: “Twenty times in the course of my
            late reading, have I been upon the point of breaking out, “This would be
            the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it!”

            It was during Adam’s administration that the Senate ratified the
            Treaty of Peace and Friendship, which states in Article XI that “the
            government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the
            Christian Religion.”

            From:

            The Character of John Adams
            by Peter Shaw, pp. 17 (1976, North Carolina Press, Chapel Hill, NC) Quoting a
            letter by JA to Charles Cushing Oct 19, 1756, and John Adams, A Biography in his Own Words,
            edited by James Peabody, p. 403 (1973, Newsweek, New York NY) Quoting letter by
            JA to Jefferson April 19, 1817, and in reference to the treaty, Thomas Jefferson, Passionate Pilgrim
            by Alf Mapp Jr., pp. 311 (1991, Madison Books, Lanham, MD) quoting letter by TJ
            to Dr. Benjamin Waterhouse, June, 1814.

            Thomas Jefferson, third president and author of
            the Declaration of Independence, said:”I trust that there is not a young
            man now living in the United States who will not die a Unitarian.” He
            referred to the Revelation of St. John as “the ravings of a maniac”
            and wrote:

            The Christian priesthood,
            finding the doctrines of Christ levelled to every understanding and too plain
            to need explanation, saw, in the mysticisms of Plato, materials with which they
            might build up an artificial system which might, from its indistinctness, admit
            everlasting controversy, give employment for their order, and introduce it to
            profit, power, and pre-eminence. The doctrines which flowed from the lips of
            Jesus himself are within the comprehension of a child; but thousands of volumes
            have not yet explained the Platonisms engrafted on them: and for this obvious
            reason that nonsense can never be explained.”

            From:

            Thomas Jefferson, an
            Intimate History by Fawn M. Brodie, p. 453 (1974, W.W) Norton and
            Co. Inc. New York, NY) Quoting a letter by TJ to Alexander Smyth Jan 17, 1825,
            and Thomas Jefferson,
            Passionate Pilgrim by Alf Mapp Jr., pp. 246 (1991, Madison Books,
            Lanham, MD) quoting letter by TJ to John Adams, July 5, 1814.

            James Madison, fourth president and father
            of the Constitution, was not religious in any conventional sense. “Religious
            bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble
            enterprise.”

            “During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of
            Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less in all
            places, pride and indolence in the Clergy, ignorance and servility in the
            laity, in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution.”

            From:

            The Madisons by
            Virginia Moore, P. 43 (1979, McGraw-Hill Co. New York, NY) quoting a letter by
            JM to William Bradford April 1, 1774, and James
            Madison, A Biography in his Own Words, edited by Joseph Gardner, p.
            93, (1974, Newsweek, New York, NY) Quoting Memorial and Remonstrance against
            Religious Assessments by JM, June 1785.

            Ethan Allen, whose capture of Fort Ticonderoga while
            commanding the Green Mountain Boys helped inspire Congress and the country to
            pursue the War of Independence, said, “That Jesus Christ was not God is
            evidence from his own words.” In the same book, Allen noted that he was
            generally “denominated a Deist, the reality of which I never disputed,
            being conscious that I am no Christian.” When Allen married Fanny
            Buchanan, he stopped his own wedding ceremony when the judge asked him if he
            promised “to live with Fanny Buchanan agreeable to the laws of God.”
            Allen refused to answer until the judge agreed that the God referred to was the
            God of Nature, and the laws those “written in the great book of nature.”

            • burqa July 23rd, 2014 at 14:17

              I have no interest in establishing any sort of theocracy, I prefer our secular government.

              I am interested in getting history accurate. These days I am involved in historical research in the colonial and early days of the Republic. I do this research in a place packed with history books of the period, many rare or very old volumes. There are entire encyclopedia-sized collections of the writings of Washington, Jefferson, Mason, Madison Pendleton and others.
              When we look at their words and activities we see they were quite devout. Their letters are packed with appeals and references to the Almighty and they went to great efforts and expense to attend and serve as vestrymen in churches of the day.

              fllwyrrign: “This is patently untrue. The early presidents and patriots were generally Deists or Unitarians,”

              There was no such thing as a Deist church or sect one could join. In all such movements there are currents of thought that ebb and flow. Just as over time we can trace how major positions of political parties change and evolve over time, so it is within Christianity. In the colonial period Deists and Unitarians in America were members of Christian sects.

              As I said, I live and walk the streets many of these Founding Fathers walked and have attended churches they attended. here are some you can visit today:

              St John’s Episcopal Church in Richmond, site of Patrick
              Henry’s “Give me liberty or give me death” speech
              http://historicstjohnschurch.org/

              Here is one I enjoy visiting from time to time. Services are
              still held. George Washington and George Mason were active members of Pohick Church:
              http://www.pohick.org/history.html

              Here, for example is the Vestry Book for Pohick Church:
              http://www.pohick.org/vestrybook.htm

              Christ Church in Alexandria is another that was
              attended by Founding Fathers:
              http://www.historicchristchurch.org/about-us/

              Here is another church they often visited, the lovely Aquia
              Episcopal Church right off Rt 1:
              http://www.aquiachurch.com/history.html

              In Fredericksburg, I would suggest visiting St. Georges
              Episcopal
              http://www.stgeorgesepiscopal.net/

              and Fredericksburg Presbyterian on Princess Anne Street a short stroll away.
              http://www.yelp.com/biz/presbyterian-church-fredericksburg?utm_source=ask

              George Washington was also a vestryman at The Falls Church,
              designed by James Wren:
              http://www.hmdb.org/marker.asp?marker=2870

              In Boston, John Adams,Samuel Adams, John Hancock and Dr. Joseph Warren attended the Brattle Street Church, a Congregationalist church.
              http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/1921660?uid=3739656&uid=2&uid=4&uid=3739256&sid=21104519893413

            • burqa July 23rd, 2014 at 14:47

              The fact that 21st century churches do not preach identical messages as those in the 18th century is hardly surprising. Any large group that continues for hundreds of years will have various currents of thought or changes in what is stressed or given priority to. We can see this in politics over many years, as we trace conservatism, for example, going from standing for isolationism to Wilsonian make-the-world-safe-for-democracy interventionism. In their time, they are still conservative when taken in context of their time.
              Your mistake is to try to apply standards today on a period 250 years old, believing that any variance proves a distinction that is just not there.
              The reason why there are thousands of different Christian sects in America is over time new or different strains of thought emerge and things are given varying emphasis or handled differently for a different audience. A new strain emerges and pretty soon you have a new sect. They are all Christian.
              The Deists were Christians just at those who believed Liberation Theology that emerged in parts of Catholicism were, or are just as much members of the Catholic church and Christianity than those who do not hold to Liberation Theology.
              Deism was merely a current that flowed within a much larger field of thought and was believed in various degrees by various people at various times. over time people ebbed and flowed individually and as a group to how much Deist thought they accepted.

            • burqa July 23rd, 2014 at 15:22

              Thomas Paine, yeah, about the only atheist of the bunch. He said he would live to see the day when no one read a Bible. Obviously he was wrong on the track spiritual thought would take in America.

              Madison? I have been in churches he attended. . Or maybe I’m thinking of mason. I get the two mixed up at times. I believe a little research will show him to be a vestryman in one or more churches. That he would have said something about religious assessments in 1785 in understandable, considering that this was in the middle of a great change that came with Jefferson’s Virginia Statute of Religious Freedom, which others, like Edmund Pendleton had a lot to do with as they hammered it out in Fredericksburg years after it was begun.

              Ethan Allen – I don’t think you understand his role. He was an important figure at the time, but was more interested in his own local deal and stood apart and sort of to one side of those leading the revolution.
              However, his statement that Jesus is not God is a belief I share with him and I am a Christian. Lots of us do not think so and many do not believe in the Trinity. Despite differences with other sects, they are still Christians.

              Somehow the notion appears that one need show a certain amount of devotion in order to be a Christian. This is not true.One who has been born again exhibits no outward signs and their behavior and words do not necessarily reflect whether they have been born again with Christ within.

              George Washington – as a young man at Ferry Farms he used to go into Falmouth to attend a Christian church – I think it was the one that became Union Baptist. I gave you links to 3 Episcopalian churches he was a member or vestryman in. It was no small thing to saddle up and ride from Mount Vernon to Falls Church, for example, but he made the trip and to the others.
              This area is peppered with old, colonial-era churches they would attend when on the road, such as the one in Aquia Harbor I linked to.

              The Lees had a chapel in Stratford Hall. A lot of those old houses did, and you can see them today.

              To say someone at the founding of the nation was a Unitarian and not a Christian would not be correct. In those times Unitarianism was just a liberal sect of Christianity.

          • burqa July 27th, 2014 at 00:00

            I agree that there is a huge difference between Deists and atheists. I don’t recall reading Paine was a Deist. But I have read where he was an atheist. I rarely go to the internet for history, preferring to read good history books.

            There’s not a lot of sites I’d regard as reliable. Often I have no idea who the authors are.

            One I think is good is American Heritage, which began as a magazine containing essays by eminent historians on various topics. I went there, and right off the bat found an article that says he was a Deist. Nice one, Mr. Wolf!

            http://www.americanheritage.com/content/have-you-seen-founding-father

          • burqa July 29th, 2014 at 17:38

            Mr. Wolfe, I have found more references to Paine being a deist and one that seemed to say he was at one time a Quaker. Thank you for the correction.
            It’s kinda neat to be corrected thusly and to have the correction strengthen one’s argument!

            I would also add that while Paine was an influential figure of the time, I wouldn’t regard him as a Founding Father because he didn’t have anything to do with the actual spadework of fighting the Revolution or establishing the country.

  4. tiredoftea July 19th, 2014 at 16:28

    Gas is expensive.

    • I_B_ME July 20th, 2014 at 10:15

      rope is cheap. :-)

    • granpa.usthai July 20th, 2014 at 14:23

      you’re right. But you can usually pick up a pack of matches where they sell tobacco for free. Granted, it’d take a while longer, but enough matches over time will serve the same purpose!

  5. Dave Lanson July 19th, 2014 at 16:39

    “Worth dying for?” Can these carbon-based units (not fit to call them people) even remotely grasp the concept of “Mind Your Own Business?” Do they not understand that because something is against the rules of YOUR religion doesn’t mean everyone has to follow such edicts, like the countless number of individuals who opt out of being members for YOUR sect?

    • burqa July 19th, 2014 at 17:43

      Have you noticed that gay rights are being recognized through the efforts of Christians who do not adhere to the beliefs of those who don’t like gays?
      The gay rights movement in many ways replicates the civil rights struggle by African Americans. There, too, Christians were in the lead bringing about equal rights.
      Ministers like Martin Luther King led the way, and groups like the Southern Christian Leadership Conference played critical roles.

      But one who is blinded by bigotry does not see such things and is only capable of finding ways to express hatred, and looks like a hypocrite when such a one tries to stand up for a different group targeted by bigots. It becomes comical when they demand the other side be consistent….

      • Bunya July 19th, 2014 at 20:25

        Did you know a lot of Muslims, Jews, atheists and others also contribute to humanitarian causes? They just don’t have (or require) their own personal cheer leading team. Just throwing that out there.

        • burqa July 19th, 2014 at 20:39

          Of course I know that. I see them working with Christians in our local interfaith council. Well, we don’t see atheists there, but when they show up to help at the homeless shelter, for example, their help is welcomed. When the groups you mentioned are the subject at hand, you’ll see me praising their efforts without reservation. You will also see me defending them when they are the targets of hatred.
          Unfortunately, one does not see the same from you.

          I did not speak about the groups you mentioned because I was addressing bigotry aimed at Christians, a subject you seem loathe to address even when it appears right in front of you.
          One can not help but conclude you have no problem with this sort of hatred.

          • Bunya July 19th, 2014 at 21:11

            I don’t understand how you came to the conclusion that I hate Christians, and why you feel the need to defend them. I know they do a lot of good. Almost every religious organization in my neighborhood sponsors food drives and provide homeless shelters. I merely pointed out the fact that Christians don’t corner the market on humanitarian services. Muslims, Jews and atheists also do their fair share. But, if it makes you feel better to criticize me for stating the obvious, go ahead. I’m not offended.

            • burqa July 19th, 2014 at 22:03

              The reason I feel the need to defend Christians is the same as why I feel the need to defend Muslims, Jews, gays, immigrants or any other group that is the target of bigotry.
              I would prefer that the Right have a monopoly on bigotry. Unfortunately, that is not the case.
              In my opinion, we should oppose it regardless of whether the bigot is on our side of the political spectrum or not. Unfortunately, this is not the case. It is a curse that infects the Left and the Right.
              On the Left we commonly see the majority stand against bigotry directed against gays, for example, but many are silent when they see it directed against Christians.
              On the Right it is just the reverse.
              I think if both sides were more consistent, we would make more progress as a society.
              I don’t think I said I thought you hated Christians. What I spoke of was silence when others express this hatred here. It would be great if you were to join me in pointing it out when it appears, regardless of the target. I think we on the Left would be far better off were more of us to speak up rather than remain silent because of the target.
              Bigotry is wrong regardless of the target and regardless of the other political beliefs of the bigot.
              This is not the first time you’ve said Christians do a lot of good. I’m asking you to likewise speak up when you see bigotry and false stereotypes posted here targeting them as well as other groups. Together we can give examples for others to follow in terms of consistently opposing bigotry, regardless of the target.

              • Bunya July 19th, 2014 at 22:53

                The reason I don’t speak out against Christian bigotry is because I don’t see it. And if there was any hint of animosity against Christians, we’d hear about it. Trust me. There is no shortage of Christian sympathizers out there.

                For as long as I can remember, I’ve seen many homophobic Christians speaking about the evils of homosexuality. I disagree and I say as much. I’ve seen many Christians chastising the whole Muslim religion because of the actions of a few, and I speak out in their defense. I’ve seen Christians praising the bombing of clinics and the murder of doctors. This type of behavior disgusts me and I make my displeasure known.

                Take, for example, this president. For the amount of good he has done, he cannot seem to please the Christian right. Why? Because he advocates gay marriage and a woman’s right to choose. Christians around the country were advised by their priests, ministers and pastors to vote for the guy who would privatize social security, cut SCHIP funding, increase military spending and do away with welfare, instead of the more compassionate democrat. Thank God many people voted in their best self interest instead of listening to a bunch of religious kooks. So, given what I’ve seen so far, you’ll have to forgive me if I show no love towards the actions of Christians these days.

                • burqa July 19th, 2014 at 23:02

                  Bunya: “The reason I don’t speak out against Christian bigotry is because I don’t see it.”

                  I agree.
                  Even when it is right in front of you, somehow you don’t see it.

                  • Bunya July 19th, 2014 at 23:38

                    No. I don’t. Maybe I’m missing something. Can you point out some instances where injustices have been perpetrated against Christians? You speak of these, but you fail to name some examples.

                    • burqa July 20th, 2014 at 00:15

                      You are missing a lot. No, I’m not going to waste my time. If you can’t see it, me pointing out what I’m describing won’t do any good.
                      I’ll give you one example, since it is right here.
                      What I see in my life are Christians who turn out in large numbers to help those in need in my community. Politics doesn’t matter, they all pitch in and get a tremendous amount done. The websites of churches I don’t attend have lists of charity efforts they support. The overwhelming majority of these people quietly, modestly meet needs such as those I have described and many others.
                      Yet take a look at what you’ve posted. If I press you, you’ll acknowledge, seemingly begrudgingly, these efforts but then you’ll spend a far greater amount of time discussing what a few outliers have done or said.
                      It’s a question of balance and whether it reflects what the group as a whole is about and what it does.
                      The same is true of others here. Just look – you’ll see it in terms of balance and whether their opinions in the comments section or in various blog posts are in any way close to the reality of the wonderful work done by millions of wonderful people on a daily basis.
                      You know people in your own community out there doing a tremendous amount of good along the lines of what I have described here. Try standing up for them and all the others who do so much at your local homeless shelter, food bank, food pantry, or other things being done.
                      Stand up for them, even when the crowd goes the other way.

                    • Bunya July 20th, 2014 at 01:25

                      But where is this outrage from us against volunteers? You seem to think we have a vendetta against humanitarian services or something. Nobody is criticizing the fine work soup kitchens and homeless shelters provide and, as a matter of fact, many of us volunteer time, money and services as well.

                      I know you’re outraged about something, but I can’t figure out what it is. You tell me I’m missing a lot, but refuse to explain what it is I’m missing.

                      Everybody knows there are Christian folks out there who do much for the benefit of others, but then so do others, regardless of their religious beliefs or lack thereof. I personally think your anger is misplaced. It should be geared towards those Christians who kill, terrorize and work to deny others of their basic human rights, all in the name of their God.

                      Let me put it this way – and I think I speak for all true liberals when I say this: we love the compassion these people have for their fellow man, yet we hate the bigotry and intolerance these same people bestow on their fellow man.

                    • Bunya July 20th, 2014 at 01:53

                      One more thing. Earlier today, they had a story posted here about the fine work the WWE and the wrestlers did for a dying boy. Funny thing. I have no idea of what religious persuasion these fine folks were, and I didn’t care. I didn’t see them as Christian or Jew or Atheist. I saw them as a fine group of people helping someone in need.

                    • burqa July 20th, 2014 at 21:21

                      I like it when we get to that point. I have described how, in my own community, we have people whose opinions span the political spectrum who got together to establish a homeless shelter and who participate in the other charity work I described. I do not know their views because we discuss them while helping those in need, but because of my involvement in other issues locally. It’s a pleasure to see someone I’ve battled helping out and I make a point of working with them.
                      I am unaware of any daily bigoted attacks employing false, ugly stereotypes in this forum directed against pro rasslers. I missed the story, but if it is generally representative of what they do and if pro rasslers become a fixation of bigots who post a steady stream of attacks that do not reflect the truth, I’ll join you in objecting and pointing out the truth of what the vast majority are up to.

                    • burqa July 20th, 2014 at 21:09

                      Your last sentence is the kind of thing I don’t care for. Portray the actions of some as representative of the views and actions of everyone.
                      You know I am a Christian. You included me when you made a universal statement that holds that all Christians are bigoted and intolerant. Do you really think that about me? I think if you met me you wouldn’t think so. I think if you met my mother you wouldn’t think that of her. I think if you met the people doing the things I have described doing things in my community you wouldn’t think so. But you lump us all together in an ugly stereotype.

                      I object to ugly stereotypes.
                      I also object to bigotry, regardless of the target.
                      In this case, I see a lot of anti-Christian bigotry here. I used to just let it slide because I am not eager to criticize those I like and have much in common with on issues of the day. But when I see people who seem to have an obsession with attacking a certain group, and who refuse or will only say something positive after much goading, I begin to think there is something more than just a disagreement over issues.
                      Something I learned long ago dealing with racists is they make sure you know about their hatred. They just can’t help themselves, it’s a subject they continually return to. You’ll be talking about some other subject and they’ll try to sneak in shots here and there when they can. I see that here.

                      The reason I have been pointing out so much that Christians do is because the actions of tens of millions of Christians in this country far outnumber and outweigh the things the kooks or nitwits do. It would be nice if others saw how false the stereotypes are, and the obsession that leads one to conclude we are dealing with bigotry, but I see that attacking Christians is in fashion on the Left.
                      Somehow there seems to be the notion that describing the actions of the majority of Christians constitutes a bias against atheists or others. This is not true, at least in my case.
                      What I am doing, in the face of bigotry and false, ugly stereotypes is tell what an overwhelming majority are doing to help those in need. Few around here seem aware of what is going on; or if they do, they are unwilling to correct the barrage of bigoted comments coming from people who should know better.

                      We criticize the Right for giving safe harbor to bigots, perhaps because they want their votes and because they agree on other issues. We would like to see them speak out against bigots in their camp. But we on the Left do not do the same.
                      If both sides were more consistent in speaking out against those with irrational hate, even when it comes from an ideological ally, we would see more progress.
                      Both sides are able to point to bigots on the other side and it is common to point this out and for the other side to duck criticizing bigots on their side.
                      I do not.
                      I try to be consistent.

                    • Clyde Wolf July 25th, 2014 at 19:57

                      That’s a very hypocritical statement

                    • Clyde Wolf July 21st, 2014 at 18:24

                      Are you that ill informed? Please, Christians have been persecuted since its inception. It’s still going on today in Syria where the ISIS is demanding that Christians convert to Islam or be beheaded… No persecution there…Oh and what about the gays in Muslim countries. Don’t go applying for a marriage license anywhere in the muslim world or you will find your SELF without a head…

            • Clyde Wolf July 21st, 2014 at 18:21

              What do muslims do? And for who? Answer me that

      • I_B_ME July 20th, 2014 at 10:15

        Do you know that christians pray to a thing that murdered a planet with a flood. Not the greatest reference buddy.

        • Clyde Wolf July 21st, 2014 at 18:20

          Who’s murdering the planet now?

      • crc3 July 20th, 2014 at 13:01

        TRUE Christians (one’s that actually practice Jesus’ teachings) accept the rights and freedoms of everyone not just a chosen few. These other “christians” are nothing but people full of bigotry and hate and a finger of the devil himself…

        • Clyde Wolf July 21st, 2014 at 18:19

          That’s true because we TRUST the Lord to take care of everything in His time and not ours..

          • fllwyrrlgin July 22nd, 2014 at 11:07

            Earlier you stated you are not “overtly Christian”. Yeah you kind of are.

            • Clyde Wolf July 25th, 2014 at 19:55

              You don’t have to be a fanatic to Trust in God…

  6. Dave Lanson July 19th, 2014 at 16:39

    “Worth dying for?” Can these carbon-based units (not fit to call them people) even remotely grasp the concept of “Mind Your Own Business?” Do they not understand that because something is against the rules of YOUR religion doesn’t mean everyone has to follow such edicts, like the countless number of individuals who opt out of being members for YOUR sect?

    • burqa July 19th, 2014 at 17:43

      Have you noticed that gay rights are being recognized through the efforts of Christians who do not adhere to the beliefs of those who don’t like gays?
      Heard the latest on this front on what our Christian president just did?
      The gay rights movement in many ways replicates the civil rights struggle by African Americans. There, too, Christians were in the lead bringing about equal rights.
      Ministers like Martin Luther King led the way, and groups like the Southern Christian Leadership Conference played critical roles.

      But one who is blinded by bigotry does not see such things and is only capable of finding ways to express hatred, and looks like a hypocrite when such a one tries to stand up for a different group targeted by bigots. It becomes comical when they demand the other side be consistent….

      • Bunya July 19th, 2014 at 20:25

        Did you know a lot of Muslims, Jews, atheists and others also contribute to humanitarian causes? They just don’t have (or require) their own personal cheer leading team. Just throwing that out there.

        • burqa July 19th, 2014 at 20:39

          Of course I know that. I see them working with Christians in our local interfaith council. Well, we don’t see atheists there, but when they show up to help at the homeless shelter, for example, their help is welcomed. When the groups you mentioned are the subject at hand, you’ll see me praising their efforts without reservation. You will also see me defending them when they are the targets of hatred.
          Unfortunately, one does not see the same from you.

          I did not speak about the groups you mentioned because I was addressing bigotry aimed at Christians, a subject you seem loathe to address even when it appears right in front of you.
          One can not help but conclude you have no problem with this sort of hatred.

          One hopes you will be persuaded to be more consistent and see we should oppose bigotry everywhere.

          • Bunya July 19th, 2014 at 21:11

            I don’t understand how you came to the conclusion that I hate Christians, and why you feel the need to defend them. I know they do a lot of good. Almost every religious organization in my neighborhood sponsors food drives and provide homeless shelters. I merely pointed out the fact that Christians don’t corner the market on humanitarian services. Muslims, Jews and atheists also do their fair share. But, if it makes you feel better to criticize me for stating the obvious, go ahead. I’m not offended.

            • burqa July 19th, 2014 at 22:03

              The reason I feel the need to defend Christians is the same as why I feel the need to defend Muslims, Jews, gays, immigrants or any other group that is the target of bigotry.
              I would prefer that the Right have a monopoly on bigotry. Unfortunately, that is not the case.
              In my opinion, we should oppose it regardless of whether the bigot is on our side of the political spectrum or not. Unfortunately, this is not the case. It is a curse that infects the Left and the Right.
              On the Left we commonly see the majority stand against bigotry directed against gays, for example, but many are silent when they see it directed against Christians.
              On the Right it is just the reverse.
              I think if both sides were more consistent, we would make more progress as a society.
              I don’t think I said I thought you hated Christians. What I spoke of was silence when others express this hatred here. It would be great if you were to join me in pointing it out when it appears, regardless of the target. I think we on the Left would be far better off were more of us to speak up rather than remain silent because of the target.
              Bigotry is wrong regardless of the target and regardless of the other political beliefs of the bigot.
              This is not the first time you’ve said Christians do a lot of good. I’m asking you to likewise speak up when you see bigotry and false stereotypes posted here targeting them as well as other groups. Together we can give examples for others to follow in terms of consistently opposing bigotry, regardless of the target.

              • Bunya July 19th, 2014 at 22:53

                The reason I don’t speak out against Christian bigotry is because I don’t see it. And if there was any hint of animosity against Christians, we’d hear about it. Trust me. There is no shortage of Christian sympathizers out there.

                For as long as I can remember, I’ve seen many homophobic Christians speaking about the evils of homosexuality. I disagree and I say as much. I’ve seen many Christians chastising the whole Muslim religion because of the actions of a few, and I speak out in their defense. I’ve seen Christians praising the bombing of clinics and the murder of doctors. This type of behavior disgusts me and I make my displeasure known.

                Take, for example, this president. For the amount of good he has done, he cannot seem to please the Christian right. Why? Because he advocates gay marriage and a woman’s right to choose. Christians around the country were advised by their priests, ministers and pastors to vote for the guy who would privatize social security, cut SCHIP funding, increase military spending and do away with welfare, instead of the more compassionate democrat. Thank God many people voted in their best self interest instead of listening to a bunch of religious kooks. So, given what I’ve seen so far, you’ll have to forgive me if I show no love towards the actions of Christians these days.

                • burqa July 19th, 2014 at 23:02

                  Bunya: “The reason I don’t speak out against Christian bigotry is because I don’t see it.”

                  I agree.
                  Even when it is right in front of you, somehow you don’t see it.

                  • Bunya July 19th, 2014 at 23:38

                    No. I don’t. Maybe I’m missing something. Can you point out some instances where injustices have been perpetrated against Christians? You speak of these, but you fail to name some examples.

                    • burqa July 20th, 2014 at 00:15

                      You are missing a lot. No, I’m not going to waste my time. If you can’t see it, me pointing out what I’m describing won’t do any good.
                      I’ll give you one example, since it is right here.
                      What I see in my life are Christians who turn out in large numbers to help those in need in my community. Politics doesn’t matter, they all pitch in and get a tremendous amount done. The websites of churches I don’t attend have lists of charity efforts they support. The overwhelming majority of these people quietly, modestly meet needs such as those I have described and many others.
                      Yet take a look at what you’ve posted. If I press you, you’ll acknowledge, seemingly begrudgingly, these efforts but then you’ll spend a far greater amount of time discussing what a few outliers have done or said.
                      It’s a question of balance and whether it reflects what the group as a whole is about and what it does.
                      The same is true of others here. Just look – you’ll see it in terms of balance and whether their opinions in the comments section or in various blog posts are in any way close to the reality of the wonderful work done by millions of wonderful people on a daily basis.
                      You know people in your own community out there doing a tremendous amount of good along the lines of what I have described here. Try standing up for them and all the others who do so much at your local homeless shelter, food bank, food pantry, or other things being done.
                      Stand up for them, even when the crowd goes the other way.

                    • Bunya July 20th, 2014 at 01:25

                      But where is this outrage from us against volunteers? You seem to think we have a vendetta against humanitarian services or something. Nobody is criticizing the fine work soup kitchens and homeless shelters provide and, as a matter of fact, many of us volunteer time, money and services as well.

                      I know you’re outraged about something, but I can’t figure out what it is. You tell me I’m missing a lot, but refuse to explain what it is I’m missing.

                      Everybody knows there are Christian folks out there who do much for the benefit of others, but then so do others, regardless of their religious beliefs or lack thereof. I personally think your anger is misplaced. It should be geared towards those Christians who kill, terrorize and work to deny others of their basic human rights, all in the name of their God.

                      Let me put it this way – and I think I speak for all true liberals when I say this: we love the compassion these people have for their fellow man, yet we hate the bigotry and intolerance these same people bestow on their fellow man.

                    • Bunya July 20th, 2014 at 01:53

                      One more thing. Earlier today, they had a story posted here about the fine work the WWE and the wrestlers did for a dying boy. Funny thing. I have no idea of what religious persuasion these fine folks were, and I didn’t care. I didn’t see them as Christian or Jew or Atheist. I saw them as a fine group of people helping someone in need.

                    • burqa July 20th, 2014 at 21:21

                      I like it when we get to that point. I have described how, in my own community, we have people whose opinions span the political spectrum who got together to establish a homeless shelter and who participate in the other charity work I described. I do not know their views because we discuss them while helping those in need, but because of my involvement in other issues locally. It’s a pleasure to see someone I’ve battled helping out and I make a point of working with them.
                      I am unaware of any daily bigoted attacks employing false, ugly stereotypes in this forum directed against pro rasslers. I missed the story, but if it is generally representative of what they do and if pro rasslers become a fixation of bigots who post a steady stream of attacks that do not reflect the truth, I’ll join you in objecting and pointing out the truth of what the vast majority are up to.

                    • burqa July 20th, 2014 at 21:09

                      Your last sentence is the kind of thing I don’t care for. Portray the actions of some as representative of the views and actions of everyone.
                      You know I am a Christian. You included me when you made a universal statement that holds that all Christians are bigoted and intolerant. Do you really think that about me? I think if you met me you wouldn’t think so. I think if you met my mother you wouldn’t think that of her. I think if you met the people doing the things I have described doing things in my community you wouldn’t think so. But you lump us all together in an ugly stereotype.

                      I object to ugly stereotypes.
                      I also object to bigotry, regardless of the target.
                      In this case, I see a lot of anti-Christian bigotry here. I used to just let it slide because I am not eager to criticize those I like and have much in common with on issues of the day. But when I see people who seem to have an obsession with attacking a certain group, and who refuse or will only say something positive after much goading, I begin to think there is something more than just a disagreement over issues.
                      Something I learned long ago dealing with racists is they make sure you know about their hatred. They just can’t help themselves, it’s a subject they continually return to. You’ll be talking about some other subject and they’ll try to sneak in shots here and there when they can. I see that here.

                      The reason I have been pointing out so much that Christians do is because the actions of tens of millions of Christians in this country far outnumber and outweigh the things the kooks or nitwits do. It would be nice if others saw how false the stereotypes are, and the obsession that leads one to conclude we are dealing with bigotry, but I see that attacking Christians is in fashion on the Left.
                      Somehow there seems to be the notion that describing the actions of the majority of Christians constitutes a bias against atheists or others. This is not true, at least in my case.
                      What I am doing, in the face of bigotry and false, ugly stereotypes is tell what an overwhelming majority are doing to help those in need. Few around here seem aware of what is going on; or if they do, they are unwilling to correct the barrage of bigoted comments coming from people who should know better.

                      We criticize the Right for giving safe harbor to bigots, perhaps because they want their votes and because they agree on other issues. We would like to see them speak out against bigots in their camp. But we on the Left do not do the same.
                      If both sides were more consistent in speaking out against those with irrational hate, even when it comes from an ideological ally, we would see more progress.
                      Both sides are able to point to bigots on the other side and it is common to point this out and for the other side to duck criticizing bigots on their side.
                      I do not.
                      I try to be consistent.

                    • Bunya July 20th, 2014 at 22:38

                      I didn’t call you bigoted or intolerant. I don’t even know you. This is nothing personal. My point is this … we criticize Christians for their despicable actions because they let us know they’re Christian when they commit them – as if they WANT us to know.

                      They kill a doctor and it’s because “Jesus wanted me to stop the killing” (ironic, isn’t it?). They bomb clinics “in Jesus’ name”. They trash gays because “they are an abomination against God”. If we didn’t know they were Christian, we’d just think they were another jerk starting trouble. They stigmatize themselves, we have nothing to do with it. What are we supposed to think when they blame their god for their heinous behavior? Again, this is nothing personal. If we heard of a Muslim bombing churches and saying things like, “Allah made me do it”, we’d be outraged at them as well.

                      ” …but I see that attacking Christians is in fashion on the Left.”

                      Really? Have you seen some of the vile, disgusting insults hurled at atheists (and others) by Christians on this site? Trust me, kooky Christians abound here (I think they come here to deliberately start trouble), and I will defend anybody who is the target of their abuse.

                      “If both sides were more consistent in speaking out against those with
                      irrational hate, even when it comes from an ideological ally, we would
                      see more progress.”

                      Sure – in a perfect world. But we live in a world where human emotion supersedes common sense discussion. And I’m not perfect. I’ll admit, I am one who doesn’t handle crude insults very well. During one discussion, one of the bible thumpers actually told me I was a sinner and going to hell for supporting a woman’s right to choose. Stupid comments are something that would get anybody’s dander up.

                      Don’t take criticism directed at others personally. We know there are good, kind and loving Christians out there, but you also harbor a bunch of kooks who like to justify their bad behavior as “doing God’s will”.

                    • burqa July 21st, 2014 at 18:21

                      Bunya: “I didn’t call you bigoted or intolerant. ”

                      You did when you lumped me in with the rest when you said:

                      “we love the compassion these people have for their fellow man, yet we hate the bigotry and intolerance these same people bestow on their fellow man.”

                      I would be one of those “same people.”

                      Then, beginning with a quote from me:

                      “”If both sides were more consistent in speaking out against those with
                      irrational hate, even when it comes from an ideological ally, we would
                      see more progress.”

                      Sure – in a perfect world. But we live in a world where human emotion supersedes common sense discussion.”

                      I agree with you. It is difficult and takes time to change attitudes. Lumping all Christians in with those who make objectionable statements does not help. The way to fight fire is with water, not more fire.

                      Again, starting with a quote from me:

                      “” …but I see that attacking Christians is in fashion on the Left.”

                      Really? Have you seen some of the vile, disgusting insults hurled at atheists (and others) by Christians on this site? Trust me, kooky Christians abound here (I think they come here to deliberately start trouble), and I will defend anybody who is the target of their abuse.”

                      I doubt those insults and vile statements are coming from the Left. I will be more careful to watch for such statements and will oppose them. I think we can agree that this sort of talk only gums up the works and prevents the sort of resolution needed.
                      And I don’t take what you’ve said personally. Quite the opposite, I appreciate the way you engage in the discussion with me and the consideration you give to what I have to say. I don’t think we’re that far apart.
                      What I’ve been trying to say is plenty of Christians are not like that. They don’t make the news because they go about their lives quietly and often do a lot of good in the community. I can occasionally prod an acknowledgement of this fact from people, but just a sentence or two, followed by paragraphs of invective. I just don’t think it is a balanced view of the Christian community as a whole. Remember, we have thousands of sects with different beliefs and variance of opinion within each sect. Imagine a foreigner taking one of these hairbrained statements by a Christian and saying that is what all Americans think.

      • I_B_ME July 20th, 2014 at 10:15

        Do you know that christians pray to a thing that murdered a planet with a flood. Not the greatest reference buddy.

      • crc3 July 20th, 2014 at 13:01

        TRUE Christians (one’s that actually practice Jesus’ teachings) accept the rights and freedoms of everyone not just a chosen few. These other “christians” are nothing but people full of bigotry and hate and a finger of the devil himself…

        • fllwyrrlgin July 22nd, 2014 at 11:07

          Earlier you stated you are not “overtly Christian”. Yeah you kind of are.

  7. Robert Johnston July 19th, 2014 at 18:30

    There are things wort dying for.
    Bigotry is NOT one of them!
    –RKJ

    • I_B_ME July 20th, 2014 at 10:14

      They are bigots and I hope they die, see it is worth it

      • Clyde Wolf July 21st, 2014 at 18:18

        Aren’t you a bigot also then?

  8. Robert Keith Johnston July 19th, 2014 at 18:30

    There are things wort dying for.
    Bigotry is NOT one of them!
    –RKJ

    • I_B_ME July 20th, 2014 at 10:14

      They are bigots and I hope they die, see it is worth it

  9. burqa July 19th, 2014 at 18:54

    If they die, then poof! away goes a lot of the opposition to gay rights and progress comes faster!

  10. burqa July 19th, 2014 at 18:54

    If they die, then poof! away goes a lot of the opposition to gay rights and progress comes faster!

  11. Bunya July 19th, 2014 at 21:23

    If “This is an issue worth dying for, then by all means, prove to the world the kind of Christians you really are, and conduct a mass suicide. I’ll be sure to show up, in the aftermath, with my obligatory, feigned condolences. Just like you did when Dr. Tiller was murdered.

    • Clyde Wolf July 21st, 2014 at 18:17

      Maybe so but AIDS will take care of you

  12. Bunya July 19th, 2014 at 21:23

    If “This is an issue worth dying for, then by all means, prove to the world the kind of Christians you really are, and conduct a mass suicide. I’ll be sure to show up, in the aftermath, with my obligatory, feigned condolences. Just like you did when Dr. Tiller was murdered.

  13. crc3 July 20th, 2014 at 12:57

    Good. Any so-called “christian” who feels “threatened” by the marriage of gays or lesbians should put a gun to their own heads and 2nd Amend themselves because the law is going to stand whether they like it or not!!!

  14. crc3 July 20th, 2014 at 12:57

    Good. Any so-called “christian” who feels “threatened” by the marriage of gays or lesbians should put a gun to their own heads and 2nd Amend themselves because the law is going to stand whether they like it or not!!!

  15. granpa.usthai July 20th, 2014 at 13:34

    Judges not only have a right to UPHOLD the US Constitution of EQUAL RIGHTS, but the SWORN DUTY to do so.
    take it from the child haters on the southern border –
    IF IT AIN’T YOUR MARRIAGE, IT AIN’T YOUR PROBLEM !!!
    my neighbors marriage has no more effect on mine as mine does his.
    if it does yours, maybe you married the WRONG ‘partner’?

  16. granpa.usthai July 20th, 2014 at 13:34

    Judges not only have a right to UPHOLD the US Constitution of EQUAL RIGHTS, but the SWORN DUTY to do so.
    take it from the child haters on the southern border –
    IF IT AIN’T YOUR MARRIAGE, IT AIN’T YOUR PROBLEM !!!
    my neighbors marriage has no more effect on mine as mine does his.
    if it does yours, maybe you married the WRONG ‘partner’?

  17. granpa.usthai July 20th, 2014 at 14:21

    and ruin all the fun for the sadist, Jake? – WTF is your Sara streak?
    let him suffer until he comes out of the closet like a good little gal.

  18. Marty Susman July 20th, 2014 at 17:04

    Then take your religion, your cartoon god bullshit & DIE.

    • Clyde Wolf July 21st, 2014 at 18:16

      Marty were you molested by a priest or something? Does your boyfriend dress up as one and part your hair for you?

      • Marty Susman July 21st, 2014 at 19:51

        Sorry my friend, I don’t believe in any cartoons or gods, they are both for children or adults that don’t think

  19. Marty Susman July 20th, 2014 at 17:04

    Then take your religion, your cartoon god bullshit & DIE.

    • Marty Susman July 21st, 2014 at 19:51

      Sorry my friend, I don’t believe in any cartoons or gods, they are both for children or adults that don’t think

  20. David Ehrenstein July 21st, 2014 at 16:57

    Abe Lincoln was gay, honey.

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